It's all about the experience with Susan Reoch

Episode 23 - Susan Reoch (EDITED)

Fri, Dec 15, 2023 8: 28AM • 44:24

Fri, Dec 15, 2023 8: SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Fri, Dec 15, 2023 8: ux, susan, love, paying, website, people, feel, content, writer, copy, retreat, live, listening, lindy, copywriting, years, copywriter, talking, creating, work

00: 01

00: Do you want to live a life of freedom and adventure? Are you wanting more than the daily grind? Me too. Welcome to the Emma Lovell show, a place where we talk about living a life you love now, I'm your host, Emma Lovell, and my number one value is freedom. I've spent the last 14 years running a business and traveling the world. And now I take my husband and toddler along for the adventure to it's possible and I know you can create a life doing what you truly love as well. This podcast will inspire, motivate and encourage you to go after your dreams to create a life you love until you get now don't wait for a time and or someday in the future. I'll be sharing episodes weekly about how I harmonize business travel and self care. I'll also bring on incredible guests to share their journeys, wins the challenges and how they're creating a life they love. Let's jump in and get dreaming. This is a space for you to manifest a life you love.

01: 03

01: I would like to acknowledge and recognize Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the first peoples of this place now known as Australia. I am grateful for the continuing care of the land waterways and skies where I work live, listen, learn and play. From here on you can bear country and from wherever you are listening, I pay my respects to the elders past and present.

01: 28

01: So excited today to introduce you to the incredible Susan reorg. Someone I've had the pleasure of hiring to help me with my own website and user experience and who has now become a friend because she is simply awesome. Susan is known for her killer web copy skills and he's informed by a decade long user experience career. Her unique her unique approach has seen her featured in top tier publications such as Copy Hackers, writers in tech, the freelance is here and the content bite. And I recently got to see her speak at the content bytes summit where she shared all about AI. She has a blog, the UX copywriter and a weekly newsletter the UX factor which is a go to resource for online business owners and copywriters who are looking for the right words and strategies to skyrocket their success. Susan is so full of knowledge and has such a cool story of how she has gotten to where she is, and I can't wait to share it. So let's dive into this episode today.

02: 34

02: Welcome to the podcast. Susan. Hi. So good to be here. Good to see you. So let's kick off with and you know, it was kind of like oh, I asked this question. And I'm like, how do we know each other? How do we know each other? How do we connect and now we just like I'm just like you're the best? I think we connected through our mutual friend Lindy Alexander.

02: 58

02: Yeah, because she said you're the best and I was like, Okay, if Lindy says then

03: 04

03: because I'm always raving about Lindsay's emails and her launching and she said, Well, I did get some help from Susan. And I was like, Okay, and so then we did some work together, didn't we? Yes, we did. And that was the beginning. But then that feels like so long ago, because I feel like that just kicked off a friendship. And we've just been cheering each other on ever since. Yes. And so I just love your social game, your Instagram game is strong, and your word cleverness, and I just really connect with you know, I someone asked me recently, like, you know, kind of what do you do? And I was like, if you ask me in my heart, I'm a writer. Because I'm not necessarily doing writing as work at the moment, like somebody like your writer. And I'm like, Yeah, that's where my background comes from. But I'm not writing per se, but I feel like we all are writing and and that's what actually I took from your presentation. At the content bytes Summit. It's like we're all content creating.

04: 00

04: And I've just made the choice to not do paid writing for other people, because I want to be doing my own writing. So I am putting more effort into my social posts and my blog posts and my newsletter, more storytelling, yes. And there is so much writing to be done in a business. So even if you do pay someone like myself, because I'm still I still work for other people and write their websites and some emails and things like that. And even if you are doing that, that doesn't mean that you're not going to be repurposing them into social media posts or quickly having to put up a landing page for a new freebie or, you know, there is just so much writing involved in a business. And so everyone sort of becomes their own copywriter in a way. Yeah, and then people get really stuck on that. Like, I'm not a writer and it's like, but what I saw with you working with you is really lovely. And what some people have seen when I've worked with them is that it can be a collaborative approach.

04: 55

04: copywriting is not creative writing, like they can't just be like make up my things for me and you

05: 00

05: Like, no, I need information from you

05: 04

05: something.

05: 06

05: Exactly, exactly. Like it's copying. No, it's not. But it's like, you know, like there needs to be something to work from. And the better more, the better the information that we give, or that you can play with, with it. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so it sort of like, I think of it as always coming from, I guess two places is from the business owner or the business and the brand, but then also from their clients and their customers and the users is a big part of where you get the really juicy information from. And I have to say, yeah, it was so fantastic because you interviewed my a couple of my clients, which I have asked them questions before and then they give me the and I get surveys for speaking I've got to do a retreat feedback survey for my latest one but I got all that information. I've got a spreadsheet I probably even sent it to you. I didn't necessarily know how to use it and it's just too close to it and I know the answers already. But I think I know the answers so I didn't know how to use that and then I'll see like the way Lindy uses it in stories I see the way you use it in sales pages, and I have it all and then there's something that's still stops me and maybe because it's about you know, my brand really is about me.

06: 24

06: The service deliver I don't know maybe there's something that blocks me there but I just can't see it objectively. Ah, it's it's hard for everyone it's hard for me you know, and this is something like we both writers and just writing about yourself is just a completely different kettle of fish. So I am a big proponent of like, get it done the best you can and then show it to someone and that might mean you know launching it before you feel like you're ready to launch it but that way you get like literal numbers back like how is this resonating? How can I make it better? Or it might be showing a trusted friend and getting them to read through it or showing like I love obviously I've got an amazing network of copywriters I love showing it to other copywriters, because just two heads are better than one and anything that you like my emails I just write and I send out right but you know, any kind of like sales page or landing page, like it's not usually the first iteration that people are seeing, you know, they're seeing it, after other people have had a chance to feedback on it, because that's where you really, yeah, you just can't be too precious about it, or you can't put that I guess it's not being too precious, but also not putting that pressure on yourself, that you have to come up and do it all by yourself, you know, it is okay to get other people's help. But there's also I think, like, for me, it was such a big, you know, hiring you was a really big milestone in my business because I block around that as well. And probably I will have writers listening to this. And it's like, but I'm the writer, how and whenever somebody suggested in the past and blessing, my wonderful web developer would suggest copywriting and I would just be so mortally offended. I was like, I'm a writer, I can write things. But I quite frankly, wasn't getting it done. And also, you know, probably not getting the results I wanted either. And it was like if I want this thing out in the world, it's like, cool, I could take the time, I can maybe take six months of procrastinating, or I could pay someone and then start making sales sooner. Yeah. And so yeah, it was a really big you were the first person I really hired to do that. And I discussed it. And I actually had talked about doing contracts as well, because I do have a lot of writers in my network, but I don't think I don't think it would have been the same. And you know, and then you sort of come into that value issue of like, how much time did they give you for? What are you going to do? And did it are and I'm just conscious been an amazing way. I spent the first 10 years of my business doing contrary and pro bono and Swapsies and stuff like that. And supporting doesn't mean I'll never ask for help and support again. But there comes a point where I was like, I'm asking people to pay me 1000s of dollars to work with me. Not investing in this thing myself. And it was just like, going. There's someone over here who their whole shtick is helping you make an amazing sales page. Why am I not paying said person? Yeah, into Susan.

09: 22

09: I'm like, I'm so glad you reminded me of that, actually. Because that must have you saying that must have stuck in the back of my mind, because I've recently just launched a new website called the UX copywriter. And I was just like, I'm paying the best web designer I can find to build this thing right and not only am I paying that person I'm also paying someone to develop a really schmuck brand. I'm also paying someone else to help me with graphics because visual,

09: 49

09: visual aesthetic stuff is not I just cannot do it. I mean, I can but it costs me a lot of effort. And I think I had you in the back of my mind being like you know, people

10: 00

10: will pay me a lot of money to do what I do best, which is the user experience for the strategy and the words. And I'm like, I'm gonna pay some experts in their field to do what they do best. And it was such a good experience. And when those invoices came in, I paid them with so much joy, because I was just like, there is no way I could have done this, like, just no way. No way. Just it's a time thing. And time has become an even simpler thing. Last night, I was out at, you know, with our colleagues at the Rachael Cruz party, and I was gonna get the train or I was gonna get an Uber and was like, you know, it was later at night, too. And I was like, yeah, cool train and bus and using public transport is great. I'm gonna take 45 minutes.

10: 40

10: It possibly if I got all the right connections, or there was an Uber for 18 minutes, and I was like, what's worth more my sleep and my time, the dollars, and it's like, I'm having this conversation over $32 A lot more money. But we're also talking about, gotta start seeing things as an investment. And I know that, honestly, like, I've been in business 14 years, it's like the first 10 years of my business, I didn't invest in myself. And yeah, I, you know, from a point of, you know, being in the black and financially, you know, not telling people just go flush out cash, but have proven concepts that we were making sales, we're making significant sales, you want more sales, so you're not just throwing it and look, ultimately, I still have that page, I change change the program. But I don't. So I didn't really ever launch the page. But I did use some of the copy in other ways. But I am still stand by I'm so happy that I got you on board, and I would happily get you again. And like, even if that paying you was like the leap to, to know that I could do that. Yeah. Huge. And, you know, yeah, and I definitely will use that copy in some way. But the process was amazing, too. And like doing a briefing document and doing it like there's just things that probably I do for my clients that you don't get to be on the receiving end. Yeah. And you just won't take yourself through that process. No way that you would decline. Yeah, exactly. Right. And it's interesting with investments, this is something and for anyone listening, I'm in a similar situation to you. And it wasn't the first 10 years. But for the first two years, I'd heard, like, you don't need to join any group programs, you can figure all this stuff out on your own, like, you know, you don't need to waste the money, blah, blah, blah. And so I started like, trying to figure it out on my own. I had success, I had moderate success in the first couple of years in my business. And then I joined my first group. And it was like, my business took off. And I was like, I cannot believe that. It was all there for the taking. And I was just like, you know, trying to save some, a couple of bucks, which I still tried to do. Like there's a real cheapskate that lives deep inside me.

12: 57

12: And always has been like, always someone that saved my pocket money, like that's just who I am. And I really have to fight against that nature of me. But any time I have made an investment in a group program, especially I look for programs that have, you know, one on one support for the peak people running it, we're going to actually going to get to know that person. And I'm actually going to form this incredible network. It always pays me back in the most amazing ways, like but you can never tell what those ways are necessarily going to be. And it can sort of swing from one end of the spectrum to the other leg, we can go the real cheapskate route. And then you see other people who come out the gate, investing in everything paid from whistles, not having an understanding of how anything works themselves and just pay for people about true. And then sort of building this business and going Yay, now they'll come and you're like, No, you just

13: 52

13: you've just spent a lot of money. And so this is sort of a battle of finding the balance.

13: 56

13: You don't just launch into stuff. But I think there's also more to some of the programs and the things that I've joined like people ask me, you know, why am I in Rachel's list? Why am I in all these networks? Why do I join programs? And it's like, sometimes it's not necessarily for the content, the accountability and the support? Yeah, it's like I've met other colleagues or even clients through joining programs. It's to see how it's done. Or run a program, right? So it's like, if you hadn't joined a program, you might not have seen thought you could run a program or like this about it. I don't like that. Or I want to join a membership. Oh, no, I do not want to run.

14: 37

14: That was way too much work. You don't know. And so you're at that, you know, if you're not participating in it and seeing it and I just think sometimes as well like, just friendship.

14: 49

14: Like, I'm not alone. There's other people asking these dumbass questions as well. They're not dumb questions. They just know.

14: 57

14: How would I know? If I didn't ask

15: 00

15: Have you know everything. And we simply do not have time to go out there and learn everything and nor should you like we go back to that point. You don't need to be an expert in all these things. You're an expert in your space. People know that they don't expect you to then be an expert accountant and an expert. I don't know, live chat person on Instagram, like, you know that you're very good at it. But

15: 25

15: thank you i That's very nice that you said that about my Instagram. I feel like I've got the woods pop down with Instagram. But I feel like like I said, my the visual stuff is not my strong point. So if you go to my feed it is I met a graphic designer, a social media marketing would be like,

15: 43

15: because I don't believe in a aesthetic grid necessarily. And I just what I've always liked about yours and like, you can sit there and make these fancy pants real, or do this thing and go like, I'll go and get go and get my like I did put lippy on for you, Susan, to podcast, I don't care. But I got put up on you know, you go oh, the lighting is not right. My hair's not done their duty duty to do. So then you hold off until the next two weeks when you do look quite nice. And then he's sitting there going? What do I say as opposed to kind of going jumping on going oh, I want to make this point and just doing a video and you do it and Lindy doesn't really well, too. And she's always like, everyone thinks that they're just crapping everyone else's stuff is good. I love the way Lindy does the text, which is, you know, just a picture of something doesn't necessarily relate to what she's talking about. It's it's a lovely picture. You go Oh, rainbow. And then it's like, something about what people are asking her about her program.

16: 38

16: I don't know. It's like, what's that got to do with the price efficient China, but I'm like, Well, I'm watching. Yeah, I'm engaged. All these photos that I'm I've got that. You know, I think sometimes I get too literal. And the same. I feel like I have to,

16: 53

16: you know, make the real so Schmidt whoa, hold off. Whereas what I love about yours is there a few seconds? They really talk to your audience. It's your face. So we know who you are. And I know, I feel like they don't usually without makeup.

17: 10

17: Just like

17: 12

17: me doing the job though. Like as opposed to somebody Yeah, presenting this thing where they're so glammed up, they paid 1000s of dollars to do all these like,

17: 22

17: and then what like, then do you even get to use them? So I just yeah, I really admire the action taking. Oh, thank you. I'm definitely something that I encourage in my students and my clients to is definitely progress over perfection. Like I'm just like,

17: 39

17: getting something out there is better than waiting for it to be perfect. And getting it out there. Because that perfect thing just won't ever make it into the world. It doesn't exist. Like it's just such a fallacy. Perfection. I feel like it it ties into like, so we should probably explain that like UX is user experience. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're doing that, like you're just listening to your audience. And it's something that I was really focusing on at the moment, which I quite, despite having a marketing background have been quite poor at is that someone is really listening when someone has a question. And I'm using a lot of like,

18: 14

18: questions in my stories and polls and things like that, to see what people are asking and saying, because there's so much assumed knowledge. I know so much of it. And I'll use my retreats as an example. I know so much about India. I know about Sri Lanka. I know what our retreats about. I know, why do you go? I know who I want. I know what I'm trying to say. But then people have questions like, Is there going to be internet? And yeah, like Da? Like?

18: 43

18: I don't know. Is there a vegetarian option? Da like, but yeah. Oh, my God, that's they don't want to know about the I don't know, the why they want to know. I don't know if the hotel room is a private or twin? I don't know. Like, yeah, if if I can help them with international flights, like, you know, but if I don't ask them what their questions are, or listen to them, when they're saying comments, yes, trying to like either document it or literally just as soon as somebody asked me a question, share something straightaway, so that I action it

19: 13

19: and put it somewhere, like keep it somewhere where they want to know, because I wasn't I wasn't listening, I was just pushing, I was pushing content. I wasn't having a conversation. And I know that the people listening are just going to be feeling very validated by that because I think that that is where a lot of people, and there might be a few aha moments going on. So if there are come and find me or enter on your DMS and Instagram and come and talk to us about it, but I see it all the time with my clients as well. Like, this is what we want to tell people and like Yeah. What are people actually asking you though? What is it that they want to hear? And that's where,

19: 50

19: you know, user experience really starts to come in. So people haven't heard that term UX before it does stand for user experience, and it's about creating this sort of conversation.

20: 00

20: sharing with people through your written content where you put something out there, you get feedback, you iterate, you make it better, you make it you make it more aligned to the things that are that are coming in to you. So it becomes more of a two way process rather than just pumping out content that you think is important. How did you get into that? Were you working? Because like, so you were working for companies? Like yeah, give us your your, my background? Yeah, oh, it started so long ago.

20: 29

20: Like, almost 15 years ago, I started a company called booking.com. People might know them. They're a big travel company.

20: 38

20: Go on there on the daily.

20: 43

20: Exactly. I started, I was living in Amsterdam, which was amazing. And that's where their headquarters wise, maybe still is based, I'm not sure. Which was amazing. And I got my start in UX there. And I was working as a UX writer, something called a UX writer, we weren't called that at the time that is kind of a new field. And so that's now what it's known as, but essentially, it's about writing. It's about looking at the user journey that someone takes on a website, and about optimizing or the little road signs that help people get to where they want to go. So that's what's known as micro copy. And this field really was developed, thinking more of Functional Websites. So you know, something like an e commerce website, where you know, you're going to book on booking.com, you're not being sold with marketing on booking.com, or you're not being sold with marketing on iconic, you know, or my art, or whatever the shop is, you're like, I'm on this website, I'm gonna buy something here. You know, is it easy? How can I make this frictionless for someone? How can it be just like from start to finish, absolutely seamless. Or maybe like you want to book a flight, or you want to make a bank transfer. So like these more kind of functional, what are known as digital products. And what is a little bit different about what I do and what the UX copywriter is all about is about bringing that same focus to the user journey, and microcopy, but also to a marketing website. So how can we on our marketing websites that aren't typically known as you know, someone trying to do a job, but you know, what, always they are trying to do a job, they're trying to find out more about you. They're trying to find out how they can work with you. They want to buy something, maybe one of your digital products or sign up for your newsletter. These are all jobs that people are trying to do in a marketing website. So how can we make it super easy, super flawless? And how can we then support that with really great conversion, copywriting messaging, too. And that's what UX copywriting is kind of all about. So that's kind of like been my journey. So I'm just listening going. So I need to hire Susan to do her website. But then I'm like, oh, Susan gave me a really nice email back the other day saying, I'm loving your content. So I'm like, I think you're doing good. You.

23: 02

23: I've just changed my whole direction. And it is like, and it is that thing is like, now it feels, I can see the alignment. And I can see where things are fitting in. But I know that that was probably also a realization that I had is like, I wasn't always taking people on the journey. It's here it is, here it is. Here's the details. Here it is, as opposed to like, let me show you this part of it. And then let me obviously people aren't going to

23: 29

23: always, especially with social, sometimes they're gonna see one day of it the other day of it, but like they might come in on day six of you sharing some of the pieces. And yeah, what's this? Uh, let me go back and let me find out. Or they go, Hey, I think I've come in the middle of the story. What's the story? Yeah, kept going. Here's the overview. Here's the overview. Here's a nonmoving, not moving people on it, taking them into those micro pieces that you said that micro copy of the micro content like going this is yeah, instead of this big piece I could use, I've got so much opportunity of content to break it down. And again, ironically, couldn't helping a client to launch a retreat to India in February, telling her exactly that. Let's take this piece. Let's do that. Let's see. Let's ask chap. CBT to break this up for us. And that's 20 pose.

24: 21

24: Like,

24: 23

24: come on by Retrade.

24: 28

24: Good.

24: 31

24: I think it's about

24: 34

24: it's about understanding the role of social media too. So this is something that I talk about a lot with people, because they're like, you know, if I'm looking at a website, for example, or if you're looking to social media posts, they're like, right, I have to fit everything. I've got a webpage and I'm gonna fit every single thing on that homepage. And I'm like, no, no, no, this homepage is just one step in our whole process that people are going on, you know, while they're engaging with you like

25: 00

25: They probably start on a social media post, they sign up to something, they get an email from me from that email, they maybe go to, you know, whatever page on your website from that page, they go to another page. So here are all those journey, these steps on the journey that people are going on. You don't have to, like put everything on every single piece of content. Like there's sort of nowhere for people to go, then. Yes, yes, well, then I think sometimes, yeah, almost do such a good job of telling everybody everything that they like, there's no reason to call you or to email you.

25: 32

25: Awesome if they buy now, but like, if we're talking about a really high end product that maybe they're not I find service. It might not, you know, just push the Buy Now button. For a $50 $100 product. Of course, you're not only having calls and conversations, but if we're talking about a higher end service or an ongoing program, you potentially do want to have them conversing with you and

25: 54

25: yeah, but like, yeah, if you've answered, we've answered everything that you've also not probably then compelled them enough know exactly. I mean, they're probably not read it all. Because I've just seen these massive social media caption that's like one big blog guy, it's absolutely find it so challenging. When I get an email from someone, it's just like this massive slab of copy. And, you know, if it's someone that I really care about, or I'm really interested in, I'm forcing myself maybe to read half of it. And I'm like, Oh, if you just formatted this differently, like you wouldn't engage you don't have time to do all of these but I would say receive that feedback like it's like and it's a trial and error like and especially when you're moving into it and I see just you've got to sign up for Susan will pop it in. Like you've got to sign up for Susan's emails. Even if you don't want us just see it's like a masterclass in how to write an email and the site like you and Lindy, I just, I mean, can't not open your header like you've got these. Like, well, what are you talking about? Like, why did you write I thought I died. You like what? Editors just seriously, like sometimes it does sound like something I would write, including, and you like, Susan what I like and they like you're not quitting, you don't have to tell a story. But this storytelling in my colleague, Jade, the photographer, I've urged her to do it. She's actually beautiful with words. She's a photographer eautiful with words, and like the storytelling that comes out of it. And it's like everything that happens Flacco canceled the other day. That's an ATM, you know.

27: 28

27: That's a newsletter.

27: 31

27: And it's, it's the storytelling and which then makes it actually really enjoyable as opposed to oh, I've just got to tell people about my crap again. No, I love that. And I love for anyone who's thinking about like, wanting to do the same thing and not not knowing how to get started. I think like the key is just to have a few things that you consistently talk about. And when you have a few things that you consistently talk about that way you start to see when something happens in your life, you're like, Oh, well, yeah, I can relate this back to UX copywriting. Amazingly, I can relate almost anything that happens in my life. But Mike, is the tangent.

28: 11

28: No, but you said that to me, as well. And it was like, Yeah, I'm really, it's only taken, however long of people dropping it intimate with that, like, you really have to have a home. And we talking about, like three things, but in different ways. Tell the story. And that's, I think, what I always felt like I was like, I'm gonna have to say the same sentence over and over again. But you then go, look at McDonald's. They just tell us to buy hamburgers in different ways. But they're the same message for however long what's it like 50 years or something? 40 years, by hamburger by hamburger, but like, hey, get free fries, buy a hamburger, you know, $1 buy a hamburger. You've just given such a great illustration, actually, when you were like, I don't know how many people have told me this. But it's finally sunk in a year later, that I should just be talking about the same thing over and over again. Okay, so you had to hear that message from several different people multiple times in multiple different ways. And then you know, someone will tell it to you in a way that you're just like, ah, that's it, I get it. And it'll be really, in we like Fluminense for you. But it's also because so many other people have told you it before as well. And it's the same thing with our marketing. Like you keep telling people the same thing in different ways. And eventually, you know, it's going to sink in, but it takes a while.

29: 36

29: Hey, lovely. I want to open the doors to incredible opportunities for you on an all inclusive luxury retreat exclusively for people who are ready to live a life they love. I invite you to join me for five inspiring nights in sensational Sri Lanka for the rest and receive retreat, hosted from second to seventh of November 2024 by yours truly, Emma Lovell.

30: 00

30: I've asked you to disconnect your senses and immerse in this exotic culture while you reconnect with yourself. You get to share this luxurious experience with 12 incredible people, while forming connections that last a lifetime. I really cannot undersell or overestimate this incredible retreat and the magic of going to a place to give yourself space and time. I want to share it with you. And if you are interested, then please head to my website, Emma lovell.au/srilanka Retreat. I'd love to see that and I'm happy to chat. If you have any questions whatsoever please take this opportunity to come along and join me in stunning SriLanka.

30: 49

30: You have to be ready to do it too. Like for me, I think I didn't have the headspace that were important. Make the shift. And it does, does

30: 58

30: does create take creativity, and it takes a habit and the way that you're we talked about you creating reels like you're kind of in this habit. But it's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, it's working for you. So keep making them in that way. I, you know, was used to doing things in a certain way.

31: 15

31: wasn't really working. It's like, that's the definition of insanity. I keep trying the same thing. And it's not working.

31: 21

31: change something. But that took took effort. It took me Mike, it takes less effort now. But that that shift, and that change, that wanting to change. That is I did need to be ready for that. And so

31: 33

31: be like, you're gonna have to do a little bit of work. And we're gonna have to restructure things. But what you said before as well about the whole, like, how the website, how the newsletters, how the socials all work together. I think people really miss that beat. And again, I know how my mind works, I can sometimes view the the map view the arrows and how they go together. And then sometimes it's just like, it's all floating up there in the cloud. It's so

32: 00

32: I don't know, it's just in the cloud. It's just kind of out there. I was like, how does this actually how did the dots connect? And you could draw it on a map for me, and I still kind of would be like, oh, so having somebody go, this leads to this leads to that. If you say this, and they go here, then they do that, like, it's a journey. And you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna say just put it I love. I've got so many like little scraps of paper all around my desk. I don't have any user journey maps right now, but, and also on my wall, like, I just take posts, and I just stick them and reorganize them. I do think it's the way because I've been doing it for 15 years, it feels in quotation marks natural

32: 40

32: for me. And that's how I see content and understand content. But I think it's something I learned, right, like, I didn't come out of the womb.

32: 49

32: I didn't even have internet until I don't know how it was the time when I've had the internet for the first time. I must have been in my teens. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so this is something that you can definitely learn and practice. But yeah, maybe it takes just a little bit of time to get used to because I think where a lot of copywriters or people that write copy come from, how the old school advertising days where things were on billboards, or long firm sales letters, or, you know, like, it was very much you start at the top, you create a logical argument, you get to the bottom, you know, that's how it works. And that's just not how it works on a website.

33: 28

33: changed. No, each format requires, like, you know, similar principle, but different. Yeah. And I think, people listening to this and going, I'm not a writer, I don't want to do all the writing. I think where it helps though, is like, you know, like I said, it opened the door to me to outsourcing it into

33: 45

33: getting it, you know, to investing in it so that somebody would help me with it. But also, like, I think it's worth having the understanding of it. Because otherwise going in, you're paying someone to do a website, you're paying someone to do your copy, if they don't actually have UX skills. If anybody can say that, they can write stuff, like, optimized for the space. So if you don't want to necessarily do it, but if you have the understanding, like somebody came to me and presented stuff, I would challenge them go. I don't really like that. What What's that got to like? Where's

34: 17

34: where's the puzzle? Like, I have that understanding. I wouldn't necessarily want to do it from scratch, but we can have the conversation of my my customers need to know this. They need to go here. I'm trying to do that. So it helps just to have that understanding of what you want to achieve. It's not fair for you to go to someone like Susan and just expect it's, you know, very good at it, but to expect her to do all the lifting, or to expect a writer or a designer to do everything and if they don't have that and you don't have that you're not gonna get the result.

34: 52

34: Yeah, even with like an IE some seriously talented designers from my website. But, you know, I was the creative director

35: 00

35: Have that project, you still have to say, like, you have to give loads of examples of what you want it to look like and find inspiration and, you know, be like, Why is this working in this way? Why does it not work in that way, and how's this gonna work and, you know, challenge all those kinds of things provide feedback. And it's, it's time consuming. And I understand why people get frustrated with that kind of

35: 23

35: with having to do that kind of work. But the product that you end up with is just so worth it, it is so worth it. nificant investment and when you're doing that work, you don't want to be doing it every year or two, like you do want to for a while, and be able to make tweaks and things like that along the way. Ultimately, you want to get it right. And the last one, the bones to work, yeah, information you feed, the better the information, the content you give them, the better, they're going to be able to give you the result of what you want. We're just you know, mind readers, nobody's a mind reader, you're very good at pulling out they should be as well pulling out the right questions. But you know, it is a collaborative approach. Now, I would love to keep you here forever, but because we could just talk forever.

36: 07

36: Tell me, just, you know, a little question. What does living a life you love look like? Yes, I find this a very tricky question. Because I do believe that I live a life that I love. And I feel like, I'm going to give you two answers, because I'm going to give you a superficial answer. And then I'm going to give you like a deep answer. Level going.

36: 30

36: Here we go. Um, so living a life that I love, superficially, day to day means getting out in nature, going to the beach, I live at the beach, going to the beach,

36: 44

36: raising my heartbeat, somehow getting some kind of cardio in getting lots of hugs for my little girls and my husband.

36: 54

36: And being in a home that I really, really love took me I think I've moved something like 33 times in my life have moved across three continents.

37: 05

37: Three countries, sorry, not three continents. But I finally at 40 found a home that I'm really joyful in and feels really comfortable. So that's living the life that I love on a day to day basis.

37: 17

37: Oh, and of course, the reason I can do all that is because I've created a business that gives me freedom and flexibility, which is just amazing. But I think on the deeper

37: 29

37: sort of level, it's about being true to what I really want. And

37: 36

37: especially as a woman, I think it's taken me 40 years to be able to be in touch with what it is that I really want. And I'm talking like, micro stuff here, like, do I want to eat a salad? Or do I want to eat a sandwich? Do I want to sit down on the couch for 10? You know, sometimes I have free time. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I actually I'm so busy all the time. I don't know what I want to do with this 10 minutes. So I've just really been trying to focus on like, yeah, figuring out what it is that I want in life. Do you resonate with that at all? That's like, that's exactly what I do with the retreats is I take people from the day to day, actually. So you remove all those anchors and those things that all those things that just keep you occupied? have the space to go well, what is it that I want not roles or titles that I'm supposed to subscribe to, or the job that I'm supposed to do? Or the shopping that's there, or the mugs that need to go away or whatever, like, you know, you know, we get this, I just woke up this morning, and I'm kind of like, almost pulled in 17 directions. And then look at my calendar. I'm talking to Susan in three minutes.

38: 46

38: You know, like, that's how a day shouldn't rise like it is it's I want to do today I want to go out the sun with my son, I want to go here.

38: 55

38: What do I need to do today to keep my business running? Actually, I could probably if I did these three things, that would be great. But you get caught by what everybody else is asking us to do. Your inbox is demanding things of you. And what

39: 10

39: I love that I hear that you've got to that place. And I've seen you demonstrate that because when we work together, I felt like your boundaries. Were so clear. I was so respectful of your time because of the way that you put that out and the way you told me you were going to work I need to be available in this day. This is what I'm going to do for you. This is what you're going to do for me.

39: 31

39: I just was like yeah, it was really clear as conned, I think yes. And you know, getting to that point where you can have boundaries. You know, you told me how you want it to work and also what you will then deliver to me I really remember that process with you and respected that as as a business owner and as a person and I can see how, you know, we have to learn that unfortunately through mistakes sometimes. Seeing it demonstrated I hope that you know, that quickly gave me

40: 00

40: A permission and it will go well, if she's asking for what she wants in the way she wants to work. Why don't I do that with my clients? As opposed to going here, you can have this or this or this. And we can make 10am or 12pm, or tomorrow, whatever you want. And it's like,

40: 17

40: you know, it was so much better going, Hey, I need you to book my podcast. Here's three key pick three times, I'll choose one. Can you fill in this form? And I'll see you then. Yeah. Everybody knows what they're doing. Exactly. It's such a joy. It's such a joy. People love boundaries, even though they're scary to put in place.

40: 37

40: People on the receiving end, always really appreciate it. In my experience, sometimes I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I'm gonna set this boundary and the other person's like, cool. And you're like, Oh,

40: 47

40: I'm allowed to do that. It's or nothing, which sounds Yes. But it's like, this is all I have capacity for. So I can deliver my service to you in this way. Or I can't do it, because I can't do it that way. And in such a like, it's not like, it's not it is hard and fast. But it's also like, it's kind to everyone can be and it's the delivery, right? Like, it's not, it's not you don't have to be super aggressive. Like, this is how it's done. Like you can do it with like, this is how I this is how I roll. And this is how we're gonna work together. And it's how we're gonna get an amazing result. And everyone's like, Yeah, I'm on board. Yeah. And if they're not meeting those, we heard it at the summit. You know, someone's saying, if they can't meet that, and they're demonstrating that they're a bit of an asshole in a dickhead you like, really show me that very early on. So I'm not right for you. Thank you very much. That's one of my no goes.

41: 42

41: Seen it? Yeah. Like if people aren't willing to fill in a form for me when we first start working, and they just want to jump straight on a call, and they just refuse to fill in the form. I'm like, you haven't even seen my briefing document yet, which is like 15 pages. And when you can't fill in, like 10 questions. We're not

42: 00

42: gonna work together. And yeah, I just so yeah, I got to experience that firsthand. And then I love. I love the simplicity of it, Susan, I think sometimes people like, oh, my gosh, I need to have some big lofty goal for living a life I love and it's like, no, it's just living life on your terms. And what we said, off air was like, what you choose how you choose to run your business and how I choose to run my business. What is a wonderful day to me doesn't look like a wonderful day to you. But I asked you that question. And I'm asking, Well, what does living a life you love look like? And that answer could be different every time and unique to that person. Love it.

42: 39

42: Okay, how do people find you? How do they go and see all your wonderful things? We'll put it on the show notes. But do tell. Yes, we'll come and check out my reels and see if you agree with me, Susan reorg, underscore copywriter and Instagram. But if you want any information about UX, copywriting if you're interested in making your website better if you're interested in you know, just sending out sending mediums. Just go to the UX copywriter.com. And it is all super easy to navigate. One of my lovely students from my program beyond web copy was like, Oh, thank goodness, you nailed the UX because you would have been in real time I'm like, I know it's so much pressure on these websites. But the the walks the walk people she talks

43: 25

43: very much I could talk to you for hours. But um, yeah, I'm really grateful for

43: 30

43: your role modeling and you're a delight to work with and I can't wait to work with you again. Yay, me too. Thanks so much for

43: 39

43: listening, lovely one. I hope this has inspired you to dream big and start creating a life you'd love today. If you love what you're hearing, don't forget to follow and rate on Spotify and rate review and subscribe on iTunes. It helps other awesome people to find this podcast and get motivated and inspired as well. Want to stay connected? Come and join the live a life you love group on Facebook, or connect with me on Instagram. Emma lovell.au, the same as my website. But all the details are in the show notes. Lovely. I'll see you next episode for more inspiration, motivation and freedom seeking Now go out there and live a life you love