Once around the sun with Jessica Mudditt

#62 - Jessica Muddit (EDITED)

Wed, May 01, 2024 7:52AM • 59:34

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

book, write, travel, year, love, author, katmandu, myanmar, work, publisher, pay, india, experience, editor, part, bangladesh, day, stories, backpacker, royalties

00:01

Do you want to live a life of freedom and adventure? Are you wanting more than the daily grind? Me too. Welcome to the Emma Lovell show, a place where we talk about living a life you love now, I'm your host, Emma Lovell, and my number one value is freedom. I've spent the last 14 years running a business and traveling the world. And now I take my husband and toddler along for the adventure to it's possible and I know you can create a life doing what you truly love as well. This podcast will inspire, motivate and encourage you to go after your dreams to create a life you love until you get now don't wait for a time and or someday in the future. I'll be sharing episodes weekly about how I harmonize business travel and self care. I'll also bring on incredible guests to share their journeys, wins the challenges and how they're creating a life they love. Let's jump in and get dreaming. This is a space for you to manifest a life you love.

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I would like to acknowledge and recognize Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the first peoples of this place now known as Australia. I am grateful for the continuing care of the land waterways and skies where I work live. Listen, learn and play. From here on you can bear country and from wherever you are listening, I pay my respects to the elders past and present.

01:25

Welcome to the podcast today I am delighted to welcome back Jessica mudit, who is an author, ghostwriter and book coach based in Sydney. She's actually my book coach and is helping me to write my first ever book through her business Hembree publishing, which I'm so excited and proud to be a part of. Jess is coming on today to talk about her new book, once around the Sun, which is awesome. I've been reading it and it's transporting me back through my travels as well as to the fabulous destinations that Jess talks about. During just as 15 years as a journalist, she wrote over 100 articles for Forbes, along with Bilanz in BBC, CNN and company director magazine. She's the author of two memoirs, our home in Myanmar and once around the sun. And she's currently writing her third, which is all about India, Nepal and Pakistan. And that will be coming out next year. Fun fact, she was actually an extra in the hit Bollywood film Tara ram pump, which I will have to watch because I love India and I love Bollywood. Okay, let's get into this and chat with Jess. She's incredible author and we on this conversation actually had a live recording, which was really fun and had some guests come along. And we just talked all things traveled. So you're gonna hear all about that. Let's jump in.

02:50

Welcome to the podcast. Just come at it. Hi, Emma. Thanks a lot. Great to be here. This is a fun one. So we're doing something a bit different. Today we are recording on my usual platform of zoom. But we are doing it live. So what we did was invited guests to come in. So they are here watching us talking and will be joining in on the chat. So it'll be really it's fun and interesting. The first time I'm doing it like this. Yeah, it's Hybrid Hybrid live recording. It's got everything. It's great. Everything because I heard you on the Instagram Live the day your book, your new book came out which is so exciting. But you know I always would like to start with

03:34

just tell us a little bit about you. Yes, I am Jessica Malik. I have just published my second book. Once around the sun. My first book is called. My first book was called our poem in Myanmar. And the third book is called Katmandu to the Khyber Pass because this is two part this is from Cambodia to Tibet. And then from Katmandu, to the Khyber Pass is the rest of that year long trip that I did through Nepal, India and Pakistan.

04:05

I found in Henry books last year to work with nonfiction authors like yourself, to bring books into the world because that's what I love doing. And so it's a coach Edit Publish model where I work with authors from refining the idea and the purpose of the book and the goals through to editing the manuscript, and then publishing the manuscript as an independent author, which means that my clients keep their royalties and they own and are fully in control of their books. So once the book is into the world,

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it's it's for the author as the business owner of their book to make it a massive success and I do everything in my power to make to set that author up for huge success and hopefully to come back and do a second third fourth book with Henry books. Well, and you do do that when one of your first

05:00

Publix I mean it was she the first the first non new published book was Holly, Holly St. John's Yes, yes, Holly's hell, which I have read, which is I'm still kind of, I don't know grappling with that. It's such a powerful story, but also the I mean, the media that's been around it and has just been incredible what a launch. absolutely unbelievable. i When Holly and I first spoke, we had a mutual connection, who worked at the Australian embassy, and Holly was waiting to hear back, she tried a couple of publishers, she was waiting to hear back from a third after which point she was going to self published. And so I was selfishly like, please turn it down, please turn it down. I want this book, I want this book so much.

05:45

Because I knew it was, you know, getting a 31 year sentence in Thailand and giving up heroin while inside. To me, it was just she didn't need to tell me anymore. You know, she was like, oh, and I finished the manuscript, it's ready to go, I just couldn't believe it.

06:01

And she Polly decided to go with Henry books to give me a chance. And it's been an incredible success selling like hotcakes, and just the media coverage and, you know, promoting awareness about what you can do, actually, you know, she had no rehab available, you know, it was absolutely terrible conditions. But she has this incredible ability to set her mind. And that when you fully, fully commit to something you have done, and you can do it, you can do it. So she's you know, she's now speaking at addiction recovery centers and things like that. So it's really been wonderful to work with Holly, and she's just a great person, and fun. And I will be having her on the podcast, I'm so excited to have that conversation. And actually, it was kind of we were meant to record. And then the day that we moved, it was going to be a pretty heavy day, because I was like, I'm talking to somebody who's been in prison for seven years. And you know, this life. And then I also spoke that same day to Dana DeSilva, who you've also worked with in a different capacity, who has, in some ways a traumatic story, and that sex and mental health and very, there we go the shift. So the pile of books, I'm not at my house, but the pile of books next to my desk, I'm going to do a photo because like, I just, you know, and the only problem is that I know them all. So I'm like, I know all these authors. I want to read all of your books at once. And I have to prioritize basically, he's on the I love the growing pile of every books. Say, Yeah, you're gonna be full. Yeah. I love it. I love it. We're in so yeah, it was it would have been quite

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a heavy day. And then you said to me, Well, don't worry, like reading my book or talking about my book. It's not a heavy, heavy day. But what I say to you, though, is what I've really enjoyed with your book. So once around the Sun is how trance, I want to be transported here. It's not I don't think it's word, but it's, it transports you. And like, it just takes me obviously I'm a traveler too. I love travel. And I have been to quite a few of the places that you're talking about. But even without that, I'm just taking back to that feeling of travel and those experiences that you're having. And if I haven't had, which I have, especially in the first few chapters, I have had some of those exact experiences and been to those places. But I've had the similar situation

08:28

of that being a traveler being a backpacker, or have the you know, sort of, I guess, budget travel style. Rock bottom budget on a shoestring is how lonely planet, you know, pictures their books.

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Yeah, shoot this shoestring and there's like, you know, I was literally these. It's Chris screaming at the book, like just just pay more money. It's $2 Yes, please. I know. But I had this constant tension, like my budget was like $16 a day, right? And that for everything. And sure, I could go over but I would have to cut my trip short.

09:09

Yeah, and I wanted to travel for 365 days. So there was always this tension, you know, and like with Mount Everest, I really wanted to go, but that would have been hundreds of dollars that would have been weeks off my trip.

09:23

You know, and so it was just incredibly fortunate that someone overheard me with my loud shouty voice in a cafe came over and said we'll give you a half price ticket if you sit in the back of the seat with the luggage

09:37

which Yeah, look at and if you open to those opportunity, I mean even today I got offered to go to a conference at half price because it's down the road I don't have the capacity or the time at the moment, but like people if people know and I was talking at this yesterday and I think it's gonna be my next podcast episode. I love free stuff. And I think we all know that we love free stuff but not only free a lot of the bargain and I said I

10:00

Want to increase my money and my wealth. And I think I had a moment, a time where I thought off accept free things that I won't get paid. But what I've also seen is that especially through travel, the karma, the good karma and the generosity of accepting and receiving generosity, when it's offered has allowed me to have these amazing experiences, and to be so fulfilled and my cup so filled, that I can go out there and be in a good place and then attract more income. I just don't ever want to get to a point where yeah, I'm staying in a lush hotel, and I'm like, It's okay. I always want to be excited by what I'm doing. And I always want to be excited by free toiletries. I don't see it actually, as free. I see it as bartering like when I worked in Myanmar for the Myanmar Times, our quirky editor bothered everything. He's he rarely paid for anything, partly because the banking system was broken. But we would, because all the journalists had to leave every 70 days, and our flights would be paid for by the airline who would place an ad in the newspaper, for free. He was doing everything. And so if you accept something for free, they're getting something in return, I ensure this is how you exchange like goodness of their heart. So, so long as you have something of value to offer. It's a barter exchange. I love that. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I just I think it's that.

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Yeah, sort of a tangent? I wouldn't, but I just I think we've traveled like, it's all those wins or those. Yeah, those times that you get to keep a bit more in your pocket. Why would you not accept that goodness. And I think that, you know, that's something that travel has always given me and I don't ever want to be not excited by I've just been watching the White Lotus. I don't know if you've seen it. I haven't seen it. I've heard so much about it. It's very strange. It's quite, it puts you in a funny mood. But what you know, is looking at people who are Uber wealthy, like we're talking like you and I would like look at the $6,000 a night these hotels and I'm just like, I just don't, I wouldn't I want to say I'm gonna be in a position where I'm gonna be doing that. But the apathy towards like, it's just like burn, it helps. But it ends like I don't even want to be a timer. I'm not like, Look at this place. And I dance. I paid $6,000 And I love it. And I'm enjoying it. And it's worth it. And I'm going to soak it in and not just oh, another hotel. Oh, another view. Like, I don't ever want to be that mad about life, but you never would be and you need amazing stuff. This is what I love about your book is how many amazing world wonders you've seen for free. Like Machu Picchu, Mount Everest, you did better than me. You've done Vietnam. Halong Bay is another world wonder UNESCO listed. So many. And I don't I just don't think people are aware. Because if you have the the option to go as a tour guide and get to see it, like, that's just a win win to me. And

13:03

it's really funny. I'm very finding it difficult to comprehend. I'm trying to remember. So I'm letting you know, I'm reading your book where you did 365 days and you had your budget, but also like we talked about the shift. Dana Silver's book also has travel element in it. And then you know, we've talked to other times about my other dear friend and writer, Kirsten Piltz who's just written her travel memoir, which has quite a lot of travel elements in it too. And again, she's doing things sometimes quite cheaply. And I'm just I can't I like I understand and I think there's really cool elements to doing things on a budget but because it was only that first year of travel that I did

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where I guess I was on more of a budget but I was always working so even I did a gap year I was never going to be I went away with $7,000 which in hindsight wasn't much but because I was didn't come back with $1,000 or something isn't that oh no that wasn't there. I went to the US I made money on a trip one

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money well i i made money while I was away but but no but I made but I went with the intention to work. So like this book where and I love the thing that I'm envious of and I spoke to a traveler the other day who I basically was like you don't get this time back like what you and both Dana said was about that freedom to wake up to let your body like you weren't you didn't have work. You wake up when your body woke you Yeah, I didn't need to alarm for a year unless I was calling you know, catching a bus at 4am or you know, there's always I would but I would also try to avoid that because there was no rush. Like I would just book an afternoon bus. Yes. Why it was even even now I'm like, why am I booking 6am flight I guess.

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Pay the $20 Extra eight or nine

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it's I run my business I can fly at any time in the day but but you know, I think that traveling mentality and you have like saving the money to spend elsewhere.

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Uh, but I mean, we've you know, the backpacker seem like, it becomes like a competitive sport, not spending money. And there's a really ugly side to it, where people just they are so and I wanted to include some elements of that I consider myself a bit of a spender.

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You know, I would just see something beautiful and be like, have to buy that little tortoise, you know, trinket. But some people, you know, they were really living off $1 a day or Sunday spending nothing, they were just, you know, they were putting themselves in a bad situation. But worst of all, they were not contributing to the local economy in which they were in. And they were horrible bargainers and stuff like really, and you just see the person, the local person trying to work out whether or not they should even actually do it, and then having to be in the company of this person for whom they have resentment, but still providing a nice customer experience. You know, yeah, I saw a lot of that stuff. And I, you know, hope I didn't get to that. But in India, especially, it's very easy to get sucked in and you start to live the economy, you start to live to the currency. And I had an argument with a friend in Mexico about this because I was haggling, which is fine. The guy on the beach, trying to sell me a dress that I didn't really need. But I was like, sure if you'll give it to me for the price. And when he I didn't end up agreeing on the price. And so he left and she said you were haggling over $1 And I said I wasn't haggling over $1 Oh, it was over $5. I said it's not $5 It was over 60 pesos and leaving the currency it was 60 pesos. I didn't want to pay it. I didn't need it. So we were bartering like, you know, you know, she kept it's just $1. And it's like, but it's not just $1 here and a guy did that as well. He paid a cab, and he gave him back 40 pesos which $4. And I was like, get your change because that's then he's going to expect that every tourist comes and just wait for dollars. It's it's just you have to make these decisions every day. And there's no clear right or wrong and I got it wrong a lot. But I just tried to have a good heart, you know what I mean? Like,

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I got better at bargaining especially, you know, living in Bangladesh, like I would bargain every day to get to work on my rickshaw.

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You just that is part of the culture and not to bargain would would be strange, but I didn't try to overdo it. But of course, sometimes my judgment was off or whatever and, or I was in a bad mood. And so I you know, bargains in a sort of yucky kind of way. But it is it's it's a massive adjustment. And when you don't like you know, I write about how I was in Vietnam, and I was too scared to take out a calculator, but I had no idea and the currency is like $13,000 to the dollar. So I you know, but this and this is what travelers do. It's part of part of the challenge and the joy and what makes it a rewarding personal experience. Yes, yeah. But I totally get I get, you know, there's that term so there's backpacker I never associated and we've talked about that I don't associate with digital nomad. Yeah, I met one yesterday and I sort of smirk, but I'm like, she's a sense and she lived in Bali for three and a half years. I'm like you are a digital nomad. I am not. And with the backpacker people, someone's like you someone said to me, You're a terrible backpacker. I said, I never called myself a backpacker. I went to a gap here. And I intended to live overseas. What I ended up doing was changing the type of work that I did whilst I was away, so that I did end up kind of hanging out with the people who were doing the two year visa thing in London. And so then I was doing some trips with people who weren't doing their backpack a year or two years or the visa thing again, it's a bit different. It's different to the backpacker scene. And so then, you know, and I heard, you know, Dana was called the glam packer and I was like, I'm a glam PA, I'm a glam and I'm fine with that. Like I wear a backpack when I go trekking, but people are like, should I wear my backpack? When I go to Mexico? I'm like, No, there's like this place is someone you can use her suitcase What bag Do you want to use? Like? Yeah, just because you're going on a travel you see the people who like hit up Katmandu and then as in the shop like my dad, like you know, they buy up dad spent like $1,200 in Katmandu, yeah, no.

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Not in the No. Yeah, the store. Yeah, I saw him coming because he was doing a five day trek. And he's like, Well, I'm going on an adventure. So we bought all the kit and caboodle. Yeah, yeah. Look, I there's so many different ways to travel. But for me, the thing is, is that you're doing it and that what I love about the art of bleisure is you're showing people that there are ways of doing it that they may not have realized the possible. I mean, I kind of wholly commit to it. Like I saved up. I traveled for 365 days, I write some children's stories, but apart from that, I was just completely traveling, went to London and then I moved to Bangladesh. So was that travel like I lived there for three and a half years and then I lived in Myanmar for four and a half years like I

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fully commit to the destination, you know, because I was like, I don't want to go back and forth. And also, that's never been in my budget like I was a journalist, you go and you get to know the place and I was like, I want to stay for the elections and I want to know this country. Well, and I shall not leave unless you make me every 70 days. So

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you know, it's kind of you can be embedded you can you know, I also lived in London, I don't really consider that traveling, but it was in a sense. It's definitely editor traveler mindset. I'm just going to

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it is lovely to see Mark joining us from Mandalay, got Mark, And, Mark, we will mute everyone just because we're doing a live. So if you could pick up

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any questions, I would love to hear them. I'd love to hear how it's going. Yeah, my popular. So we've got a couple of guests who are here observing. So just pop your questions in the chat for us. And we will get to them for sure. So generally, we're talking about, obviously, once around the sun, the book, but, you know, we are both travelers, and so to talk in that sense. But what I found interesting that you said and we had very two different approaches to this. And we did our travel at very similar time, which is also really interesting. Reading the other two memoirs that are set at different times because of the technology and the way where the world was at and so you were to six or seven. So it hasn't six to seven. Yeah, so me too. So we would travel a year. And I think, where social media was that where technology was that? Where I don't know, I think he's still it was really a prime time of it was still you were still like, oh my gosh, you went backpacking. Oh my gosh, you did a gap year where I feel like there are people taking extent, lots of big extended travel. Now. I was very unique in my age group to have done it. And I would think you taking that year away or to move away, you would still be one of the more unique ones. No, really not. I knew heaps of people, maybe not for a year, but definitely for six months. I had lots and lots of people. But I would think I was a bit late because I did all my university. So I did six years of that. And then I went you know what, bye. And then I and then I left and I didn't come home for 10 years, whereas other people kind of took a year off in the university studies, came back, got the job. Did it you know, became an adult? And I sort of did not do that? Yeah, maybe it's because I was from the Shire.

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Maybe? Yeah, I was from Melbourne. Every people were always leaving. Yeah, a couple of Yeah, a couple of people. In my year probably did it. But majority either went into work or, you know, I'm talking kids, I'm talking the gap here. But then, like, people started doing the visa thing. And they tended to be a little bit older. So yeah, early, as opposed to the 1819. And then they'll quite surprised when I was over there. How many people were in their late 20s or 30. And I was kind of like, you know, I'm like You old.

23:01

But your comfort level like for me right now. Guys. I met a guy the other week. He's 23. And I was like, do it now and I was like reading this book. Do it now and he's already doing it because I said when you in three or four years, your comfort level will change. And you won't be able to do you may not be able to do the $5 Hotel anymore depending on some places there's always that availability but there's just things that I would not put my husband through

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and I definitely have children this is completely different. I mean I'm so I'm writing the Katmandu to the Khyber Pass. And the part that I was writing yesterday was my absolute joy at my hotel room in Katmandu, because I had not had I'd slept in a dormitory in different places for five weeks. And in Katmandu, I had my own toilet, and I run over to the toilet, unlike my own toilet, you know, like, it was amazing to me and the privacy to have my own room again, it was all I needed and wanted, which is such a sigh, Renee saying that she had kids in her 20s So she didn't start traveling until her 30s. And now at 48. She does as I do host retreats. So which is a totally different, you know, travel retreats. That's a totally different way of travel. And yeah. And also, Rene and I have a different lens of it as well, because when we're when we're planning trips now on behalf of potentially 12 other people, you're thinking about all of their comfort and what they want from the experience as well. And we even had a situation in India, which was funny. At the time we had a cooking class that was the woman was an interesting character. But I you know,

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yeah, I afterwards sort of the next day I said, we wouldn't do that again. And I've spoken to my colleague and I was just certainly talking to the photographer, but I would tell the whole group like it was fun, and we handled it well. But she said sort of Strad to convert my vegetarians into eating meat.

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and just sort of like, threw me under the bus in front of the group. And I'm like, I can handle it. And I was there as the group host. But I'm like, we sent a group there. And I wasn't there. I don't, I can't, I can't trust that. Whereas we have another lady in Delhi near half from saffron palette, who we send everyone to because we know she's gonna give our guests the best experience. And so my phone was all that she was fun and lovely. And I said, they find his people and I'm glad we met them. And we had a fun experience. But I have to think about the best for the group. And I have to make the decision for the best of the group. And so it's a difference con I'm so surprised in India, I would have thought it would be trying to convert the carnivores into becoming vegetarian.

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Go so it wasn't go it was Kerala. Kerala is such an anomaly. But yeah, they actually would serve Yeah, eat first. And we didn't even give them so used to vegetarianism being so open. We didn't even check the which is like a lesson on my part. We didn't know that you would stop you WIC because meat is almost forgotten in India. I know to me, which blew my mind. We had the option. And then just she was so baffled by what to cook. And I'm like, but you're a cook. And my friend, who's the chef and deli was just like cooked potato, like give him potato and just like they shouldn't have potato in the house. Like, what Indian kitchen is is like, and

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no, no, it was it was poor on both parts. Because it was like, Okay, I should have said the diet trees. I didn't know the diet trees. But they also didn't ask the diet trees. And I'm just like, I just but I just was like we thought of covered this off earlier in the retreat. Yeah, yeah. That's it's such an easy mistake to make. And really, the onus is on the Cooking School to check the dietary requirements soon, like, Good lesson, and just, yeah, a great lesson for me to teach people in retreats. But so we've gone off the tension, but there's so many as you said, Yeah, we have

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what, um, levels of travel? And I just think Okay, so let's define that packet, because I think everybody has a different view of it. So what do you and you said, there's sort of this ugly and beautiful side to it? What would you define as backpacking to you? Well, to me, it is that you carry a pack, you must carry pack on your back.

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And, and that's that's it to me really, is that if you even if you're saying in mid range accommodation, that's I mean, I guess that's gland packing, it's really tricky. To me, my idea of it is that you're staying in hostels, and you carry your bag on your back, and you probably don't have around the world ticket, you got a ticket

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to one country, and then you might have a plan. But it's to me, it's also more overland, then, then sort of doing you know, 10 European cities and you're carrying a backpack to me backpacking is that overland journey, but that's just because that's, that's how I did it. And also quite slow, because, you know, denotes kind of doing it on foot. So it's quite slow. So you're thrifty, you're strong, and you're free.

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The free, I think the free is nothing for me. And the thing that I, when I read about backpacking, and when I think back to gap year, the envy that I feel, and the envy that I felt talking to this, even though I this is where it talks about running your own business, you should have freedom, but to become sort of, we have to have things to do. And that thing we have chosen this life of giving, you probably have sold a lot of your possessions.

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You can have rent, you don't have overheads, is such a

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free way to be

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at that. Like that. MB of what am I going to do today? Oh, we want to go over here. Okay, what you're gonna allow up and with, you know, oh,

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like

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that.

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I'm trying to, even in a shorter trip include some more space for those sorts of things. Because, you know, it's so it's not planned everything. Yeah. And then you hear about this wonderful thing. And then you've got to save it for next time. You know, so it's kind of cool. Having those and I said to Matt, I want to try that at a smaller scale. Like, let's just go and stay somewhere or like book our first two nights and then have 10 days nothing. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

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Yeah, that's because then you can linger for as long as the place holds your interest. And if you just don't sort of it doesn't do anything for you just move on the next day. Like it's just so amazing. In some places like Kolkata, I ended up spending 10 days because I just loved it. You know, I love the whole city of riders. There was just beautiful things to see and it was amazing. It's always and then I went back and had my honeymoon there which was a funny place for a honeymoon. Yes, that is an interesting place for it. I have not been to Calcutta but I'm very keen to go. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Willie like places that you ended up

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Because you said you so maybe you had a rough terrain 65 days of travel once around the sun because you wanted to stay in the warmer areas. But were there any places that you sort of had pinpointed? Or you've gone? I'm gonna go to that country and then you didn't India? Yeah, India, I really and I wanted to, you know, I knew that you could get a six month visa, and I wanted to use every day of that visa in India. So my rough plan was to do a lap of India. And I did and I did, and it was, I wanted to do it alone, as well, that was important to me. Things do not always go to plan, we shall say that, for better or worse. But I did have, you know, five months and three weeks in India, so that was really fantastic. And I wanted to go to Pakistan. And I had the Lonely Planet, I because I borrowed it from the library, because of course, I couldn't buy all my lonely planets, because I'd have to carry them. But I used to, I would look at the pages of the polo players in the mountains. And I'd hide the Lonely Planet under my mattress, because I didn't want Mum and Dad to find it because they would rent out like you're going to Pakistan. So I'd like put it in and then I'd take it out at night. And I did get to go to Pakistan, which was amazing. And that's going to be in the second. Yeah. But you wrote, why you and I get I was gonna say this, and I kind of got on attention. But you and I like so I did my gap here and you done your year. But I always thought I knew I was gonna write a book, but you didn't think it was going to be a book. Or I look, I did hope I hoped it would be a book. And I didn't. And I even I started painting in London and I and my watercolor teacher was an old time new a literary agent. And he said, Come and meet her because I said I want to you know, I just had this amazing trip. And I'd love to write a book. And I was like, oh my god, oh my god, I'm gonna make a literary agent. So I stayed up the whole night writing chapter summaries and putting it all together. And then I met him at the station. And he said, Oh, she's busy. She couldn't come. And I was just like,

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and that sort of, I was like, Why did I even think that would happen, you know. And then I just was busy trying to be a journalist and stuff. And

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I was just trying to be a journalist, there just wasn't enough time in the day to also write a book, because I was working full time and studying and everything. And then I moved to Bangladesh. And then I thought the book would be about Bangladesh, because that was such a profound experience, you know, more far more depth to it than, you know, just backpacking, right? And then I couldn't get that book published. And then I was writing it all while living in Myanmar, getting knocked back, getting knocked back, came back to Australia, got knocked back. And I said, that's the last time actually, I'm going to write a book about Myanmar, that got knocked back that got knocked back. And I said, I'm going to self publish this book. And then I haven't looked back. And that's why I'm really passionate about self publishing. I don't know, I don't think people realize how many times I have been rejected, it might be 104 different books, and every time really hurt. So where is it? Hmm, the Bangladesh book, where is it? It's number four, it's coming up. The cover photo is like, I was because I'm reading me and my book and I'm like, I'm like, But how did you get there? You get people like where's like I like cuz, you know, was Bangladesh. I COVID happened and my divorce happened. And I didn't Bangladesh is a tough place to live. And I saw a lot of really sad things. And it didn't have the period of optimism that me and my hand that I was like, you know, and Myanmar for a while was you know, very newsworthy because all the eyes were on it. It had changed its political system. I was like, I have to write about this country. But then I, in the lockdowns, I just didn't have the appetite to start writing about Bangladesh has a newly single parent in lockdown. So I was like, You know what, let's read also international travel just stopped. It just stopped and I went, I just can't believe it. And I'm going to write about it and that really gave me the drive to write about it.

34:11

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I'm tired. I want to share it with you. And if you are interested, then please head to my website, Emma lovell.au/srilankan Retreat. I'd love to see you there. And I'm happy to chat. If you have any questions whatsoever, please take this opportunity to come along and join me in stunning Sri Lanka.

35:23

But also, we must say that your ex is Bangladeshi. So the Bangladesh is very much tied to him. And then, yeah, well, mine was also quite a lot with him. And then, but this is before pre that. So yeah, important detail. I met shepper in Bangladesh, he was my translator, and we got married. And then we lived in Myanmar together, and then we separated in Australia. So just to do it justice to give it time. I think time is actually a really good thing we booked that leaving it a few years can actually improve the book and do it justice. Yeah, I think that's something that I've always felt like I was missed out or it was too late. And then I've had, and you know, full disclosure, you're going to read it. But in the acknowledgments, I've actually acknowledged to people along my journey, who confirmed to me through you know, that we were ways that the book was coming, and just gave me that peace of being like, Don't worry, it'll come kind of thing. And one was in 2014, and one was, like, two years ago, just to be like, Oh, you will write the book. And just, and I, so I've been so fascinated by your experiences, because it's so vivid, like, I read Myanmar first, and then I'm reading this one, and it's so vivid, and I'm like that it's 18 years ago. And then I reflect on my own journey. Of course, it's still very vivid for me, too. Yeah. And so, memory, you did have, like, how do you I know this, but let's tell the listeners, how do you go back to those memory? Like, what sort of data do you have?

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I use a process of reconstruction. And I, you know, this is a 2006 edition. So I actually had this as I was traveling. Ah, that cafe? Um, I did have, do you still did you

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get the ball on my bookshelf, all those blue books, they're all 2006. I actually carry those on the planets. Because the current The Price Is Right. I'm like, brings back immediate memories. I know where I say that I look it up on Google Maps. I do a lot of walking tours on YouTube. My dad saved every email that he and I sent each other, which was over 80,000 words, letters to my grandma postcards I should have, I should have brought them out.

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And I've also contacted the people that I've traveled with and said, hey, you know that time you got robbed in Vietnam? Can you tell me about it again, like if there's any details that I missed. So that's and that's been amazing to reconnect with people as well. Once

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Rob came to your book club on Jan Rami came Rami, who I traveled with who got robbed came to my book launch. And she and I have actually recorded a podcast, where we go through the memories, which I'm going to upload this week. And it was just, it was so nice of her to come and amazing. But I do want to say that if someone is thinking of writing a memoir, don't be held back by the fact that this happened in the past, because you will surprise yourself. Obviously, it's such an important memory to you that you would spend the time writing a book about it. The memories are there, if you can just tap them. Like I know with Dana, she listens to music and stuff to bring it back. But her experiences are more recent. But you know, Bruce, catch the wind. This book was set in 1968. Yeah, you know, he never forgot 1968 When he was 18. Again, he has his letters, he did a heap of desk research. And he remembers it because he was there. Don't forget that you were there and have a caveat. If it makes you feel more comfortable that these are my memories. They're true to me. There may be some errors, and they're my fault. But write the book. You know, that's what I would say and don't Don't be fearful of, can I remember well enough, don't make stuff up. No, you'll remember you. You'll remember enough because the scene requires less than what people think you don't want to be bogged down in every detail. No, and it's problem as we say when it's too fresh is you're like I think my always concern was when you're dealing with a year worth of stuff. You're like the books gonna be you know, as big as Lord of the Rings, but it's Yeah, yeah. Was that in and you know, I think you've said the same the emails, some of the emails you sent home are quite embarrassing, because I'll be like, and I had breakfast and I'm like, Oh God, literally setting my journey

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so cute. Yeah, no filter, no filter. Ages. Well, and I think how I always start so are you

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to always start writing and then just cut the first bit because the first bits always waffle, but it's always just like, I had breakfast, and I did this. And I did that. And then And then, and what I've been finding is that yes, as you're writing, it's quite fact effect. Then you go, Oh, that was a good story. Oh, I can elaborate on this. So oh, that's actually an interesting point. And

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yeah, you get into it. And then you're like, Oh, that is quite a good. You know, as you're telling people, and you got to hear me, it's what you tell people you like, you're like, Oh, that's a good thing. Oh, if you're interested. It's probably interesting, then, yeah, your skill as a writer is as much what you leave out as what you put in, the ability to choose what to put in is critically important. And it's not a blow by blow account of my travels. Or it would be no good.

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No, and quite simply do not have this. And it's not bad. It would have been a huge book is what you you've said it would have been the year that's already true. It's going to be true books, not one. So. But you said because you've

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because you're self publishing, you had the choice to be able to do that. Yes. Whereas if the time editor, you would have a sorry, are we out of time? No, no, I've got an unlimited. We will go to if you if you're happy to we're gonna we'll go for another 1015. Sure. Okay. I just saw the timer ticking. No, no. But yes, we, you got the prerogative to make? Yeah. Yeah. Because it was, it actually was sort of making the writing experience less enjoyable for for about three quarters of the first book, because I was stressed out about how long my book was going to be. There are some conventions, I'm happy to break, but I don't want to give people 140,000 word book, or, you know, I was thinking would sit in that awkward range of like, 125,000, that's, you know, this is a 78,000 word book, but like to double that it's heavy, it's expensive to print. It's taking up too much of people's time. And so

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I kept making, like, you know, had just the name of the chapter and approximately how many words you know, let's say three and a half, and I was like this, the maths is not mapping, you know, this is not going to work. And then when I went, I'm going to split the book into two and I asked my editor, Lauren finger, I said, Can I split the book in two? And she goes, No, just what she said, write it, finish it, take stuff out, you will be able to take stuff out. Keep it to one book, very sensible advice. So I kept going, and I was like, Nah, I can't, I can't, I can't. And then I just went, you know what? And then I was like, Okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to split the book. And then I went, Oh, my God, I've nearly finished. Instead of this book taking forever. I was suddenly like, I can release a book soon. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think this also, I think, sometimes the worried ego, oh, that story. I want to include this story. And then it's really nice. And I heard this from Emma is X has written two books, and she'd write something. And her, you know, her editor will go, that's for another book, like, great.

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So,

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and I was like, it's so nice, because I'll be like, Oh, I love this story. But I'm like, doesn't fit this book. And I might even not fit the gap, your book. And there's a wonderful book that my uncle gave me. I think it's called something like it's a Lonely Planet book. And it's something like stories to nowhere or stories from nowhere or something like that. And it's just this collection of short travel stories. Like it's basically a mini a bundle of all memoirs. Yeah. And I'm like, I could write my own bunch of mini travel. Like there's no, the theme is stories. It's not yet short stories is absolutely a genre. I mean, Roger Kipling has mastered that art, you know, the short stories are beautiful. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that you know, each thing is own book, or that everything has to fit into the one book. It's like, there could be a book that is just a collection of stories that yeah, read is yeah. Is you not

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you know, not anything else. So it's nice to be able to know that you've got and you gave me that very wide advice of an Anna Featherston

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backed it up to or you know, but said you're not writing the first don't think about one book. Think about the series.

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So it's so liberating to be writing this and going up that's the next book or Oh, I mean, oh, cool. This I kind of like I'm sort of planting this seed because then I'll elaborate next time. And then I want to say to people I want more that you like, cool. Oh, that'll come later. It's such a nice and to know that. When this one finishes, I

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kinda you're already writing and it's a habit now and that, you know, it's lovely to hear that I'm glad Bangladesh is coming out. And I'm like, Well, what else is she gonna do?

45:09

I'm gonna write a book about how to run a book.

45:12

There you go.

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Number five. Amazing. And you. I mean, I love the way that you and not everybody does it successfully. You've done something you've learned from it. And now you're helping people to do it in terms of starting the publishing house. You're the publishing business that you needed the first time. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Because I think a business starts with a problem, right? So if when I was a journalist, I would always begin with what problem does your business solve? Because that would give me a really good understanding of what they did and why why. And usually it was the founders own story. And so for me, what gets me out of bed in the morning, is turning the heart ache of, of not getting to fulfill a creative dream. It's not about the royalties or fame, but expressing your idea in book form and getting other people to read it and having that gate shut that possibility closed. And so when people come to me, and they have tried and try it and try it, and they've put all the work in and everything, and they have an amazing idea, but they keep getting blocked. And then when I say let's do it, they sort of don't even understand straight away like, you know, Mark Chipperfield, with this book, no buts, which is an incredible book telling the stories of 12 men who were violent or abusive. They took part in a long term behavior change program, and they started to stop being violent and abusive.

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I was like, This is amazing. I booked in an editor. Let's go. She said, No, no, you have to tell me should I publish the book? I said, of course, we should publish the book. Of course, we should like, I guess I skipped over that part to me. But she had really low self confidence. And I just kind of took it for granted. So that's, that's what I love. And my clients are such interesting, smart, determined, people who don't take no for an answer, because they keep doing the research. And I what I also love is that they don't put prestige over idea because I know some authors, and everybody's different, but they say if I can't get a publisher, I'm not going to write the book, I need the validation of someone backing me, because that is more important than getting my idea out into the world. For me. I just really wanted to share my book with the world. So it's really rewarding. It is so rewarding to see like Bruce, posting his book to the ABC editor last night, he just messaged to say the interview is confirmed like they love the book, he's going to be on ABC evenings. It's great. When Bruce and I started working together, his confidence was rock bottom.

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And I said, Bruce, you've written two books. This is 165,000 words when he sent it all to me. So we've got to split these, like my books, like you can't put it on his recollections of 1968 were incredible. So that's awesome. And also it's nonfiction, my books, all the books that I work with are true. And they contribute to knowledge and sharing ideas that make people's lives better or make people feel less alone. And that's, that's what I love. Yeah, yeah. And I've heard of the term a little bit late lately, if you can, like a vanity publishing what, what's that? Yeah, it's so there's different models of publishing, I call myself a hybrid publisher. There is a lot of disagreement over different terms, and even what a hybrid publisher would be. So I'll set it out, because the other thing that I've realized is that for my business to succeed, it will be transparency. That is what I need to be upfront about. So a traditional publisher, typically, if you get one of the big four, they'll pay you in advance, and you will not contribute to the cost of producing your book. The publisher, buys your book buys the rights to the book, and they put it out and they then keep the majority of royalties for the lifetime of that book. And the author is very unlikely to earn back their advance. And they don't always get an advance but they don't invest in their book. They also don't have control over their cover, the marketing, how long the print will be, how long the book will be in print for. So the publisher owns it for about 10 years. And if it's not selling, it just is unavailable. My then there's vanity vanity has existed for a long time, which is where the author in pays money to a publisher to produce their book to get it out into their world. Some of the first published or self published vanity publishers was Virginia Woolf and Jane Austen, because they were so determined they got knocked back from publishers, the

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Virginia Woolf and her husband, they set up their own printing press at home, to get the book out, because it was that burning desire. And the rest is history literally, right? I now the thing with vanity is that the criticism is that there's no quality control, the company's just taking the money and allowing them to print glowing vanity projects about themselves. Okay, that's sort of 1980s 1990s 1970s type thing. With the rise of self publishing. So self publishing is Me Myself, I published my book on Amazon. It's available at all the global bookstores. But I paid my editor Lauren to edit my book, I paid a cover designer, to create the cover for my book, I don't pay Amazon anything, they pay me royalties for the lifetime of my book every month. Now, Henry books comes along. And there's not many companies in Australia, in the US, there's one called che rights,

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which is they're really big. So I help self published authors to publish their books. So the author pays me and the editors and the designers to create a really high quality book. So they you don't have to learn alone, you're not doing that self part. We take it all over. When your book is released, it is your IP to do as you wish, I just set you up to receive royalties, and you earn them for the lifetime of your book, to make things really confusing. Hybrid publishers in the United States have a true hybrid model. So they the author subsidizes some of the costs to produce the book.

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And the publisher retains some royalties for the lifetime of the book less than they would typically.

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If it's at all, it's a different approach to me. I like my approach, because the author should always be in control. Like I have clients, how they would like their cover is I please my clients when I give professional advice, but I'm not, I don't say you have to take out the last three chapters of your book, and I don't say this is your cover, like it or lump it, right? Because I think the author, it's so important to the author to always be driving their book, the success of their book as well. And they need to have the freedom to update their book, repurpose their book, or two copies of their book and not to have to get permission. So the idea is that I bring up the quality of the self published books, because it's well planned out. Its editors, it's got a beautiful cover. And it's metadata and all of that, and it's in all the places it should be, which frees up the person to write the book. So a book is an expensive thing to produce. The question is, who's going to pay for it? Will the publisher pay for it? Will you the author pay for it, I was okay with paying for it. Because it was deeply important to me, I saw it as part of my business and part of who I am. And in the way that I would invest in a speaking coach, or marketing, if I provided goods or services. This is another massive tool in who I am. It's definitely and I wouldn't even use the pay. And I'm listening to book at the moment, which is I keep raving about called who not how but it's like if you've ever see your who people, the people in your business as a cost. That's an issue like they are an investment you are investing in them. And I just for me, yeah, books always been an investment. It's just an investment. Yeah, time and space, the time the finances and the energy to invest, to make it what I wanted it to be. And you know, I know people it's like, you know, fundamentally a book. It's just like I just wrote for half an hour a day, X amount of words, we put it together and had a book. And it's like, yeah, I could just put words on a page like I could have done that at any point. I have six chapters laying around a one book in six chapters of another book. Are they the book that the world needs? Are they the book that I want out they're not making it you want to be remembered for your book, it's not just a purse I like I like to say a book is not a purse, it's not an accessory you can just purchase right? It has to be a good book you have to remit be remembered for your ideas and hopefully write more. That's a book of value, that book will get you good, well paid speaking gigs, that book will get you clients if you write a bad book that will close doors. So it's about producing really high quality books that are indistinguishable from a traditionally published book. Anyone can and I do want to have courses in time for someone that you know just does not have the funds but they do have the time. Because what you're doing is you're trading your time. I know how many hours it took me just to work out Amazon and the mistakes the costly mistakes I made. To me this is a really good way of doing it. And I also prefer

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model I feel as an author, it's an equitable for me to have the royalties of a client's book. I feel like they put the work in. And I do feel over time, the lifetime royalties of the book is way more than what they will pay me. And also, I think you don't like it. I speak from my experience. I don't want that attachment. No, I don't want to enter into a lifetime financial arrangement with someone. No, I said, I set people free with their books. There's your book. I'm going to the world and enjoy your book. You're in. I've done this part with you. We worked together for this portion of time. And then yeah, I just it's it's much cleaner and clearer.

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You know, I've done these commission things, even with my pet sitting and it was like, Oh, that person, you referred them and they're doing gigs. You should now get the commission. I was like, I don't want to chase them every time they get a $40 set for $4. No, no. Well, that and I just was like, I give it lovingly and freely. Science. You I earn money with you when you will with me. We separate now. Well, I've had I've had one person try to begin that sort of lifetime referral thing Bismark, Highmark, and I just don't want to do it. The other thing Henry books is unusual, is there's like you can I paid all different people for all the services, I had an editor, I had a cover designer, I had so many people, I had someone running my Amazon advertising. I what Henry books is different is it's end to end you don't have to look outside, just come to me. And we will go from start to finish. And I know it's an ambitious model. And other people have said, Coach, Edit Publish coaches are no good at publishing. And editors are no good at coaching. And I might well but I'm an author. And so I have, I'm writing my own books as well. So I do know the emotional rollercoaster of what it is to write a book and I have self published so I'm doing what I do for myself. And also like I have other editors that if I'm too busy or something that they can do either the proofread or a substantive edit because I want it to be really big, like I want to have quite a large team of people but 10 this

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Yeah, and I don't and you know that that's what I would love to do, because then I can help more people bring out more books. Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much. We'll wrap up and we'll say hello to our people here. Once we've gone off air but funny like a radio show.

57:44

So much just for sharing the book and sharing your stories. I know we didn't talk as much about the ones around the sun. I think we're gonna have to do a live chat more travel stories

57:56

at the start, but the current book is once around the Sun you're very much in the thick of your third book, which is Katmandu to the Khyber Pass. I'm calling it K to K in my head. Awesome. And, and yeah, and then yeah, you know, you know, so we've got Jeff, the author, and then we've got Henry books, the publisher, and you know, personal thanks for being on my journey. And I'm sure we'll we will have you on to talk about that. Yes, I was reading through your chapters this morning. Yeah, I saw.

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I will flip the script.

58:32

Yeah, then but thank you so much. And yes, books available at all good bookstores. Amazon. Audible.

58:42

Yeah.

58:43

Thank you, Jeff. And congrats.

58:46

Thanks so much.

58:48

Thank you for listening. Lovely one. I hope this has inspired you to dream big and start creating a life you love today. If you love what you're hearing, don't forget to follow and rate on Spotify and rate review and subscribe on iTunes. It helps other awesome people to find this podcast and get motivated and inspired as well. Want to stay connected? Come and join the live a life you love group on Facebook or connect with me on Instagram. Emma lovell.au, the same as my website. But all the details are in the show notes lovely. I'll see you next episode for more inspiration, motivation and freedom seeking Now go out there and live a life you love