Navigating Life and Death with Amanda Collins

#73 - Amanda Death Duola (EDITED)

Thu, Jun 20, 2024 11:11AM • 52:05

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

doula, dying, death, terminal illness, life, talk, grief, support, book, podcast, conversation, child, world, ukulele, people, year, love, feel, lovely, spent

00:01

Do you want to live a life of freedom and adventure? Are you wanting more than the daily grind? Me too. Welcome to the Emma level show, a place where we talk about living a life you love now, I'm your host Emma level, and my number one value is freedom. I've spent the last 14 years running a business and traveling the world. And now I take my husband and toddler along for the adventure to it's possible and I know you can create a life doing what you truly love as well. This podcast will inspire, motivate and encourage you to go after your dreams to create a life you love until you get now don't wait for a time and or someday in the future. I'll be sharing episodes weekly about how I harmonize business travel and self care. I'll also bring on incredible guests to share their journeys, wins the challenges and how they're creating a life they love. Let's jump in and get dreaming. This is a space for you to manifest a life you love.

01:03

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01:26

Hello, and welcome to today's podcast. I am so delighted to be introducing you to Amanda Collins. And today we'll be speaking to her. Her title is unusual and wonderful. Death discussed poet and author and ukulele tragic. I met Amanda through a group where I posted a question about the podcast and she wrote back and said she was a death doula and talks about grief. And I was so intrigued and we had the most amazing conversation. I'm so grateful that she popped up in my life. And I think you're gonna get so much out of this episode. A little bit more about Amanda. She lives and works on Tonga round country in central Victoria, she helps people find their way through the murky world of death and dying and helps them find ways to support the dying and themselves through one to one support. And her book Not Dead Yet a practical guide. She firmly believes that talking about death will not kill you, and that playing ukulele just might save the world.

02:28

This is such a beautiful, divine conversation. And I'm so excited to share it with you.

02:34

This is powerful, and I hope you'll you'll continue to share it on. Please welcome Amanda Collins.

02:44

Welcome to the podcast Amanda column.

02:47

Hi. lovely to be here. Thank you so much. I've been so excited to have this conversation and unfortunately we both had to postpone a few times. So I'm really delighted to have you here today. But please tell us a little bit about you in your own words.

03:03

Okay, so my name is Amanda I am lucky enough to live on a hill on Tonga and country which is down in central Victoria down the south of Australia.

03:15

I am a poet and a tragic ukulele player or possibly a ukulele tragic.

03:22

I'm a death doula and an author.

03:28

I have been watching for too much of the Great British Bake Off and yesterday I made a fruitcake where all the fruit went to the bottom

03:37

I certainly believe that talking about death won't kill you. And that playing the ukulele will save the world.

03:45

That's like one of the best interests I've ever had. I don't want to

03:49

you know we could turn that cake like turn that frown upside down. You could just turn it K cups and be like it's an upside down cake. I mentioned upside down with the fruit at the top. Exactly. Upside Down capable love that. Yeah, I should have put pineapple at the bottom and then I could have done that. Yeah, next time.

04:07

People don't like fruit but printable, but it's for all it's very inclusive cake. It is it is That's right. And people who don't want the fruit they can have the bit at the top, which is kind of an odd Denson putting it's very sad. I'm sure people will be able to weigh in on what I did wrong.

04:24

I love it. We're talking about values right up front. So I don't even know where I posted or I commented or something. We were in a group at writing group. And you commented back maybe I was asking for podcast topics or something. And you commented back about in you said death doula, and I was very interested.

04:46

I'm very open and excited to talk about a conversation that people don't want to have. Yeah. And particularly as you know, because we're 2023 was a big year.

05:00

Fear of death for me to be honest and anticipate anticipated death Unfortunately, once you have a terminal illness, so I didn't even clock that it started for me in December. So December 2022, I lost a friend breast cancer, someone who had volunteered with her child. She was, although the writing was on the walls still a shock, I was surprised by how shocking it was, when it happened. Then January, there was a tragic helicopter accident. So my husband literally saw dead people and was working on the recovery of that crash. And that was quite confronting, being in our backyard. Being that we nearly booked that helicopter, like I literally had the page open the night before. And then for him to have to be dealing with it. And then the following day, I got a call from my brother saying that my nephew had a terminal illness. And when I looked that up, he the life expectancy was zero to four years.

06:01

2023 wasn't done yet. My grandmother passed away at 93 and 93 in March. And then in August, within the space of two weeks, I lost two friends to breast cancer.

06:13

Gosh, that is that's a big one it.

06:18

It, it never ceases to surprise me how you get these Whammies you get these series of Whammies. And you think, okay, we're just gonna stop this now, at least for a while because you do get to a point of going? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I got nothing left. I got nothing left. Like if

06:38

I had Yeah, I don't know. It sounds like it comes in a few more than that. Maybe? Yeah. I don't even want to start there. Yeah, yeah. And we do like to think that, you know, that there's some substitution we can do that will make it better, or that there's some ritual, you know, or it's all happening to me, because I was a bad person and didn't raise, you know, I bought takeaway coffee cups or something, you know, and and it's not, it's, it's just the way the world works. And it works like that for everybody. And

07:10

until people start dying around you, and I don't mean, people, they will fall they will pop off. But until Pete, you people that you love start dying, you're kind of a bit oblivious as to what effect it's going to have on you. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it was such a lesson in grief.

07:31

And funnily enough, you know, I've spoken to you and we had a wonderful conversation, just to, I guess, just get on the same page and to talk about basically counseling me for it.

07:45

Gently advising, I wouldn't say counseling,

07:48

holding space for me and giving me some perspectives, which was beautiful. But, you know, I mentioned to you that and my audience might not know, but I used to contract, an email titled On the other day for an organization called Southern metropolitan cemeteries trust. And so I've literally written article after article about grief and about death and about dying about some of the true witnessing. So through my own experience with through researching

08:20

that how to work through grief, but you cannot know how you're going to

08:25

how it's going to impact you. And

08:30

also who like so I actually went back and like was reading these articles. And because it's not written in my voice, yes, kind of third party to be able to like them reading what I wrote a few years ago to help me. Yep. did you how did you find that?

08:43

Yeah, it was great. And then it was great to be able to give those resources. So I guess I'm, one of the things that I know is how to ask for help.

08:52

And how to seek guidance, and to be open to that and to know that I don't have to do it alone. So that's probably the I think the thing that I've struggled with

09:05

is sitting in it,

09:09

because I want to fix things. And I want to, I know that grouping, so that the helplessness and the hopelessness, especially with anticipatory grief, like I can, I mean, mourning for the people who've gone. I'm not I mean, I'm in mourning for something that hadn't happened. Yes, yes. And that's really common. When you're caring for an aging parent who you know, is dying.

09:38

Or you know, or an aging family member or someone with a terminal illness, you are dealing with the reality that things are changing, and they're changing whether you want them to or not.

09:53

And that can be really hard that can be

09:58

Yeah, it can be an awful show.

10:00

Have you know you can be sitting laughing with someone one minute over a cup of tea, and the next minute you think we won't be able to do this, and it kind of jolts you out of that lovely moment? And that's a really

10:12

that's a really typical thing for our brains to do. Thanks brain. That sounds Yeah, we've kind of wish they wouldn't kind of wish they wouldn't be reading this great book at the moment, by Mary Frances O'Connor, called the grieving brain. And she's a neuroscientist, and she talks about how

10:30

the people that you love, actually are encoded into the proteins in your brain. So that when things change when they're not there, because they're away, you know, when you're a little kidney went away on campus, oh, mom's not around, oh, mom's not around, or mom's not around. That's the little proteins in your brain going? Well, she should be, she should be around because she's always around, because my proteins in my brain said she should be there. So,

10:56

you know, grieving, anticipatory grief, all of that kind of stuff. It's all coming up against what your brain knows is real.

11:07

And the fact that it's changing the brain goes, no, no, no, no, we got proteins for this. Don't check. Don't be changing what's going on? We've got it all encoded. It's like when you move the furniture around in your living room, and you bump into the couch for the first couple of weeks? Because it's in a different spot.

11:22

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Getting to know the new way of being and yeah, I mean, even that people, when somebody does pass, the first thing you need to do is call them, you really do. Yep. And you even, you know, or you want to go look at the old messages, find any trace of them, and especially someone, like, you weren't as close to like, there's someone who's part of your life as a negative impact on your life. And then you don't realize you would miss them so much until they're gone. And yeah, for sure, have a note on my wall to post I've written a letter to my ex boyfriends mum, who was very treating me like a daughter very dear, as a teenager when we work together. But I didn't at the time, I didn't even know what to say. So I didn't publicly declare it. I didn't know if it's my place, and all that sort of stuff. And then actually did some NLP training. And there's a grief exercise. And we had to do the thing on each other. And in that, you know, I chose to do I do a sort of letting her go. That's what the exercise that you know, whatever, talking to them. And so then after that, I wrote the post, and I'm just I want to find a photo. And then I want to put that up, because how long it's been, but it was, yeah, that's, you know, I'm writing a book and in my acknowledgments in there, and as well.

12:49

Ironically, one of the deaths recently that affected me most was another death doula. We had a little, we have a little club up here in central Victoria. And so it's a very loose affiliation of debt dollars, but we do, you know, we share resources, and we pass on information and we, we share jobs. So if somebody's supporting someone, but they can't always be there, then they'll find another deaf tool that would be there. And this woman, Helen, she was our

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she was a mother hen, you know, and and we would meet up for lunch once a month, and we would share what was going on for us and she was the the instigator of the hey, let's let's have a community cup of tea so people can come and talk about death and ask their questions. Because we don't do that enough in this in this country. And in this culture and and when she she died quite suddenly. So there was no real big build up there was no oh, you've got a diagnosis. Oh, we should all get together and and you know, have a

13:59

loving and let you know how much you're loved. We never when she was gone one minute she was there, you know, organizing all these things. The next minute she was gone. And I think we were all shocked and surprised at the big hole that she left and look logically. She was going to leave a big hole. That was really how the world was going to work without her there was going to be a Helen shaped space for a very long time. And there's still a hole in shape space around around the Bendigo area. Yeah.

14:29

I'm with you. And I understand this. So we've leaped in, but we probably could go back.

14:37

How did you get into being a death doula and I guess what do you feel a death doula does? Or what's your role as a death doula? Sure, well, there's lots of different death doulas. There's a wonderful

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certificate for course that people can do now in Australia.

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To train to be a death doula that's kind of Goddess

15:00

tificate behind it. But lots of people come in to death doula work,

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from medical backgrounds or counseling backgrounds or just with lots of life experience caring for people. And

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and some people like me I don't have a medical background, I have a teaching background. So my

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my role as a death doula is mostly it's mostly talking, talking or writing, sharing information. I do a lot of one to one sessions online where I talk to people who are either caring for an aging parent or caring for someone with a terminal illness. I also talked to people who have a terminal illness, who don't have someone to talk about. So

15:44

you know, someone might get in touch and say, Look, I want to talk to you before I talk to my family. So I know what I can say that won't scare them and what I can't say. And generally we come it boils down to you can say whatever you need to say, you know, you're the person doing the dying here, you get to say what you need to say. So how did I get into it?

16:07

Oh, well, maybe before that. What is a death doula so death doula is a little bit like a birth doula in that they don't necessarily have to be a medical practitioner, and often they're not. But there's someone who will come alongside a family or a person who is dying.

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So not a quick death, but something that's a little bit longer. Someone who will be able to provide connections help people work through their options, think about their choices.

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If you are someone who says Well, look, I've seen someone die in hospital and that wasn't for me,

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then a death doula might be able to help you to set up a space for dying that is more

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more humane or more comfortable, or more homely, or

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has the right kind of supports around it because it is perfectly possible in lots of ways to die at home or to die in hospice in a way that that you're

17:11

a little bit more comfortable with. I don't want to say dying. Dying is for everybody. Dying is for everybody. It's just that we don't want to think about that yet. Dying is for everybody except for me. Yeah, yeah. It's guaranteed, right? There's not many guarantees. Yeah. Guarantees. You may never pay taxes, but you're gonna die. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how did I get into it, I saw a couple of older relatives die in ways that made me cross they made me distressed and, and angry because I felt that they weren't

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private enough or supported enough or humane enough. I felt that I was

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slow to get on board but but was a vocal supporter of voluntary assisted dying when that was first being campaigned for by go gentle in Australia.

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Because my dad ended up taking his own life.

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Because there was voluntary assisted dying was not available. And I just felt that this was so cruel. And so far from the compassionate and humane society that I felt we

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were that we should be living in that we deserve.

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And so part of my part of my early work was looking at voluntary assisted dying and supporting that and tried to help that get on edge and a lot of letter writing and a lot of

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talking to people.

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And again, it's all about talking, it's all about

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let's really look at the issues and look at

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what it is about death and dying that scares people.

19:07

There's sorry, I imagine

19:10

I'm talking a lot here. But I do want to say when our good, good, good. When we have the words to describe something, we can talk about it. When my dad was dying. I did not have the words to talk about it. I didn't know if I was allowed to say

19:34

is voluntary assisted dying, something you would consider I didn't know the words to say what's what does support like look like for you, dad? I didn't know how to say

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Do you think there's any other professionals that might be able to help you?

19:52

All I knew was this person that I loved was was in distress. And and I was I

20:00

unable to provide anything useful to the situation. And as a teacher that really frustrated me, because I felt like well, there's there's obviously skills and knowledge and words out there. I need to go and find them. Yeah. So that's how I kind of fell into it all. And then of course, I ended up writing a book so that other people could could read it and and find out for themselves, hopefully, before it got to the pointy end. Yes. And that's such an important point. We will put that in the show notes tonight. I consumed it in an afternoon and it was very helpful, very practical, very helpful. Just things you need to consider. But I think it's like, it's like making you know, people don't make wills. It's like, that's even just one small part of it. But oh, my goodness. Yes. Like, yeah, one of the things I'm really clear with, with Matt is, and it's, it's not a nice thing to talk about, and it is very confronting to do it. But it's your first one, you got to think about it. And once you have a child, I have a child, I have to think about what's what if it's me, who goes and how will match? What will man you need? And what would that look like, but also, if we both were to unfortunately, which does happen, and Finn was left, I want, you know, and there's only a certain amount of control you could have, but I have wishes for him I have I have wishes for we have a way we have values, we have things that I would wish for him. And ultimately, yes, the person who raises him has to take on that responsibility. But we can have our wishes, we can at least put our wishes out there and what you wish to happen. And if they're not recorded, then the person left looking after your child has to make a best guess.

21:52

You know, and your best guess might be terrific. But it's also likely to be a little bit wonky, because we are

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we're very imaginative creatures, as human beings. And so we just imagine what seems like the right thing or what seems like the best gets. Whereas if you've got things written down.

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You know, I can I can imagine that. A will might include something like I want my child to have access to a fax machine, and that might no longer be relevant technology. Do you know what I mean? That's a bit of a weird example. But

22:30

there are, yeah, if you've got a will, and it's up to date. And by up to date, I mean, that's checking on it every year and or does this still hold true? You know, for, say someone who, who owned two houses and sold one? Well, that's us. Yeah. Right. You know, you don't want to have in your will, you know, an assumption that there's two properties there that need to be managed, because they don't anymore. So yeah, it's it's, it's useful to revisit, we revisited our wills

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last year and realized that our adult daughters who are willing, truly proper adults, they're 25, and 26, was still going to be under the care of their auntie who we had made executor of the will. Not only is their anti super busy, but they probably are quite capable of managing their own affairs at 25 and 26. And I would, I would go so far as to say they're absolutely unable to manage their own affairs. So all that death bureaucracy, so important to just revisit it every so often just touch on it. You know, if you're in the filing cabinet, and you see your copy of the we'll open it up and have a little look, if that makes sense. If you open your filing cabinet, and there's a big gap, where your will should be, that tells me that you need to get on and do it.

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I lovely, I truly believe it's your time to shine. To build your business, you need to know the right steps to take at the right time. And I know it can feel so overwhelming trying to figure out what to do next, when there's so many things to do. That's why I offer the Hour of Power. It's one hour where we get clear actions that you can take start building your business today. You can use this session to get advice, review content, build strategies work through mindset books, we could simply talk about what you want to do next, what you want to attract into your life, and how you can actually bring more travel and enjoyment into your life. It's whatever you need, this is your time and I'm here to back you every step of the way. So let's hit you up for massive success. Check it out. The hour is power. You can find it on my website, Mr. lamborn.au forward slash Web. Check out the show notes. And if you're interested at all please do contact me. You can also get me at Mr at ml level.au. Now back to the

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sewed?

25:01

Well, and it just, I think it gives you some peace to know and to have everyone on the same page. The other thing about wills, I think I've learned and your wishes is you have to voice them or store, you're going to make a video, you have no right to tell people where it is, and tell people if they're impacted by your will. And it might be a difficult conversation, you know, to tell your in laws, you're, you're down, you're down. Yeah. Are you willing to be the person and a particularly for things like, you know, care of a pet or care of a child? Yeah, for a property, they might. It just might not want. And that's okay, like this assumptions we make to and about people's positions. And I think just having those conversations about and, you know, you can preface it like I do, it's not a nice conversation. But it's an important conversation. And I go back to Brene. Brown, and it's clear is kind. And you otherwise you you it's quite irresponsible. Then I've had a friend recently, unfortunately, it has been had a heart a heart attack, basically. And I said to her darling, I'm here for you. But this is the worst time and I want to talk about it. But we need to talk about it. Have you done your wills? Because I knew she hadn't before? And I'm like, I'm pretty sure if I hadn't done? No, this is two months ago. I'm pretty sure she hasn't. And it's when you have children. This is now irresponsible. Like it's not just it's not Yeah, find anybody who's around. It's also putting you in a very precarious position in terms of the dynamic of you and your partner. But it's also so irresponsible to those children of how you're setting them up, or yes, what you're putting us all of you wonder, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, you can, you can phrase it in ways that are very gentle and very soft. But at the end of the day you need, there's a certain amount of bureaucracy that needs to happen, there's a certain amount of paperwork that if it's done, and if it's it, so if the will is done, and if it's findable, and if people know where it is, and people are pretty prepared for what's in it. Everything is a little bit smoother, because when someone you love dies, your grit, your the grief, absolutely messes with your mental state. It's like being drunk. It's like being absolutely. So your decision makings impaired, your ability to find things is impairs your ability to remember things is impaired, it becomes really problematic. I think one of my favorite things that I learned very, very early on as a death doula was about a woman we were talking about. Okay, so you make your will, what do you do with it. And she said, My husband and I have on our mantelpiece, a beautiful red lacquered box. And in that box are all the things that my family will need, if either of us dies. So copies of our wills are in there, details of what we own are in their details of our emotional will, which is all of the things like this is my favorite song. This is my favorite recipe. This is this is my favorite photo of me ever. All of those things are in that box. And everyone in the family knows Oh, that's the death box, which is hilarious in itself. Yes, but it's good to have it in life. Yeah, make it live. Make it beautiful. Yeah, make it you know, and I think I've talked to you before about,

28:24

you know, having never having a three year old going through this recently. People go to great lengths to have birth plans, and people understand.

28:36

Yeah, birth, doulas and starting to adopt that role more, but then just so evasive of this death planning, as well. And just I think the thing that though I'm coming up against in my world is that

28:54

you can have a birth plan. But you have to also accept that that birth plan might not go to plan. And so we need to understand the various ways. But the same of the death plan, you can have your wishes, and we can have our one and we're talking about a terminal illness sense. But you also have to understand that the doctor said six months, it could be a month, it could be six years. We don't Yes. You know, it could be in hospital, it could be at home. You know, we don't we don't get the control. But we have the plan. And we have our wishes, but in that plan should be contingency plans. Yes. Because just like the birth plan, we're gonna get desperately disappointed because it didn't go to plan. As opposed to being like, this is my guide. This is my wish. But also, I understand it could go like that, you know, the same with death. You know, let's make a plan because plans help. But yeah, if that happens is Plan B C, D X. Okay. But this is my desired plan. Yeah. And at least you've thought about it. At least you've thought about not this

30:00

For not that

30:02

we have so much tremendous technology available to us. So medical science can keep a physical body alive for a very, very long time. And that is wonderful. Because there are particularly in traumatic situations for a family to be able to spend time with someone who has accidentally ended up at death's door for them to be able to spend time with that person, before they die, can really helped with the whole grieving process and all of that kind of stuff.

30:40

But

30:42

if you're dying of a terminal terminal illness, and the medical profession says, Oh, we can do this intervention and that intervention and this intervention to give you more life,

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the question always has to be at what cost?

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What do what quality of life do I end up with? If I do this intervention, that intervention and the other intervention? And when someone's dying of a terminal illness, you are always threading, a kind of a wonky path? Through? What's what's available? And what's going to give you a great quality of life? Because one of my wonderful mentors, Denise love says, are you living are you dying?

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You know, because we're all dying, you know, we all have a death date, we just don't acknowledge it.

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But

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with your with,

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with support from the medical community, you can live a really full last few days, weeks, months, years.

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I recently was supporting a woman who,

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and I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying this, she can haunt me if she does.

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She, she had grown up in Western Australia, and she loved to go to the beach and watch the sunset, at the beach. And her

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one of her last wishes was to go and watch the sunset in the beach in Western Australia. But she

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wasn't fit enough to fly. But with enough support from her medical team, she was able to go to the beach in Victoria. And she said she would so friends of hers took her to the beach in Victoria with enough medical support. And she was able to be there at sunset. She said I remember the smell, I remember how beautiful it was. And it brought back a lot of memories. Even though I couldn't fly all the way to Western Australia, I could still have that beautiful experience. And she died not many days after that. But because of medical support, she was able to do it, she was able to go and be there at the beach.

33:03

I think some of that what I'm learning and seeing is maybe the done better in other cultures and not done so much here. It's that accepting. And that letting go and that has to happen from the person as well as the others. And I have a I've learned a lot from my cousin who is my grandmother's cousin. So he's actually 101

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like the book ikigai longevity. I mean, he could have written it. He's incredible. I learned a lot from him. He's been on my podcast. I mean seeing him in July, we'll do another one.

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Remarkable. But, you know, he said to me one day

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at 95 I wish at 95 I think at 95 they should take us all out to a field and shoot us.

33:52

Frontier.

33:54

Yeah, pass. I mean, he's been. He gave my dad when he was 8685 dad went to visit him. This is so we're talking 16 years ago. He gave me three because he's like, I want you to enjoy it while I'm alive. As I'm giving it to you now. Dad's like said to me like do you want it back?

34:15

I've been saying goodbye to him, which is quite upsetting since 2009. Yeah, let's listen to us. Yeah, that's the set of overseas family is that you do say a proper goodbye. So when I say goodbye to my grandmother in August 2022 It was quite possibly and I was pretty sure it was the last time so I said we say goodbye. We said I love you properly. We said that every time with my cousin is quite from it every time we say goodbye because like there's a very real chance he's 86 Yes, it could be months time and he'd had half a one cut out that trip is 101 thing.

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I want to make sure I tell him I love him and I you know,

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learn because he is closer to death than many of us.

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was

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and then to also acknowledge how he feels about that he's tired. He's over it. Like there's times where he doesn't. And I used to go. No, no, no, don't say that. Oh, no.

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And now I don't I just let him say what he wants to say. Because yeah, and I have to accept that. He may want to die. In

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some days. I'm sure he does. He'd had enough. And then the reality Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And one of the nice things that a death doula can do is a death. doula can sit with him and say, okay, so you want to die? What do you want to do today? If today is not the day to die?

35:39

It's a way they're there. Their job is really just to acknowledge the reality of how the world works.

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And listen with a bit of humility. And I really love that you said, I used to say, no, no, don't talk about that. Oh, no, no, don't say that.

35:57

That is our first inclination. And I'm sure I've said it many, many times, before I wandered into this forest. But

36:08

by saying no, no, I don't. Don't say it, you're actually

36:14

invalidating what they feel, you know, whereas to actually say, Wow, that sucks. You know, I can, I can see what you're saying there. And that really sucks. That is permission to be human, and to feel what you're feeling. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And it's a gift to have someone who will listen, and who will say that for it. And who will reflect that back to you. And that doesn't mean you've got to go down. Yeah, it doesn't mean you've got to go down a deep and meaningful counseling journey, because I'm not a counselor. I'm just a death doula.

36:48

You know, I don't need to analyze every feeling that someone has, all I need to do is to say, here's your reality for today. Have you thought about alternatives to what you're what you're currently experiencing what you might find out there? So I'm a little bit of a hey, what's over there kind of girl?

37:11

I mean, yeah, I tend to notice that I'll miss you. I miss you. You love to keep you here forever. But I understand how you feel. Yeah, sorry. I understand that feeling. I don't feel that way. But I

37:25

feel that way. And I saw another wonderful person, my great aunt who's 93. She's incredible. She was a doctor as her husband, a general practitioner. So she's seen. I've seen death. And they have a she said it. She says basically retirement they

37:41

do not resuscitate. They haven't yet resuscitate. And because they're like, No, I don't want to go down that path. And she talks very frankly, and she's very pragmatic. And she has been a wonderful support in this time with my terminally ill nephew, because we can, she's seen things and so we can just talk very honestly, very pragmatically, sometimes scary things that I need to hear that I can't hear from other people. I can't say in front of people.

38:16

Not that I could say it, I choose not there's people I choose not to have these conversations with because they will invalidate my feelings or they will have judgment or they will. You know, when I spoke to you, I love speaking to you because they don't get emotional, because I'm calling but honesty is not that people aren't being honest. But I what I need in this situation is to face the reality and to accept it and to process it. And

38:47

when there is no hope to be allowed to be hopeless and helpless. And yes, in a lot of people try to make it all better and to have permission to be hopeless and miserable for a bit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really underestimated how much just being allowed to wallow in your grief for a bit, actually helps to actually say, Well, this is shit. And I am now going to sit in this ship for a bit and have a good cry about it.

39:26

I actually love crying. I find crying incredibly cathartic. The tears that analyze tears, you probably know this, but they've analyzed tears and different tears have different chemicals in them. Your body chooses what to get rid of when you cry and when the tears fall. So let those tears fall. I didn't, ya know, do it. Let those things fall because yeah, particularly things like excess cortisol, things like that your body will actually help shed some of that cortisol

40:00

with some tears, so yeah, let yourself sit in it and let yourself have a bit of a cry. Because eventually,

40:07

you know, we're not allowed. We're not allowed to cry. Not a lot of

40:11

you're like, Oh, I'm getting hurt. But it's like, just let it go. Because that is what my husband actively watches sad movies. Yes, therapy. Yeah, let's watch that, as I know, this movie is gonna be sad. And he watches it. And he allows himself to cry. And he's good. And he's back to being like me.

40:30

I have a couple of movies that I that I go to, I tend to love the Disney movie.

40:37

The kid which has got Bruce Willis in it, and he meets himself as a little kid. And, and then he's got to try and work out how to get the little kid back to 1970, whatever it is. And there's bits in that that just make me go.

40:51

So

40:53

yeah, when things get intense, and I think and I can tell, I get that headache. And I think no, I need to have a good cry.

41:00

So yeah, I'd jump on and hit a Disney movie. Yeah. Well, if that expect, well, I had an experience recently where I was flying back from India. And I think I had, because of everything that's going on travels, helping me is a very easy change of location. It's a very good escape. And I think at times, I do need the escape, and also working, so I'm very in the work. And there were things that I was actively avoiding. I would acknowledge them and I'd see them but I can't read that right now. Because I have to stay focused, and I have to stay in the work. And I'll get to it later. And then when we got the plane back.

41:37

Of course, I choose a movie that's about a woman dying with brain cancer. Okay, yeah. That's enough to know that it might be that you don't know like, the movies about cake in bars. So you're like, oh, that sounds funny. It's a great movie, but it's not

41:54

funny.

41:56

But it was probably what I needed. And I cried, like, heaving crying because I had to let it out. And I'd had shut it off. And then it came all of it. We actually had my friend there. So we had a hug. And she helped me which suddenly I would have been okay without it. But it was nice to have it there. And then as we were sort of, I mean, barely around a landing the boy next to me, it's lovely. Indeed. Boy, it was like, Do you feel better now?

42:28

Feeling better?

42:30

Yeah, I think we're having a nice chat, but you'd like to like just like, Oh, let it be a but this lady, she's having a complete meltdown? Yeah.

42:42

I think it is that transition between places. I do a movie that you're actually watching. You're engrossed in, and then allowing myself to feel the things and if I'm on my own, I don't care if anyone sees me like, it was really it was cathartic. It was probably needed. But I spent maybe what crying? Yep. And the other thing that happens if you don't, if you don't let yourself cry, then is it'll pop out. Right when you really don't need it to. Yeah, yeah. There was one other thing that came up last year, that was really interesting. And then just the way that you came into my world as a whole the feeling of the podcast, it was about podcasts, and you just happen to come in. And I was like, like, latched on to you. I was like, we need an

43:29

interesting topic anywhere, no matter what. But obviously, through my work. I've been through a lot this past 18 months. But last year, I went to get a book, and I wanted to switch off. And I want to just read a book that I picked five books in a row off my shelf in my house that were about a child dying off on the grid system, or, you know, each of them had a theme around, like very like to buy them on the front cover on the back cover. And I'm like, no, no, I think it was to me, or someone who said, you're actually being called to address it.

44:08

There's books coming out of this show.

44:12

I wasn't ready then. But then recently I read a great book which I've recommended to you I don't know if you've been able to read it yet called Loving my line dying cheating husband. I haven't gotten to it yet. But yeah, yes. And no, it is. There was a lot of grief. There's a lot of healing there's and it was brilliantly written. I know the author. She's fantastic. Kirsten Piltz. She's been on this podcast, but just even the detail of the process because he had cancer and most terminally ill. And I think we might have talked before that or just after I read that and it was like, Oh, this is this is the press. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also a perfect example of all the paradoxes that we hold as human beings. We are messy creatures.

45:00

She says, we are not. And

45:04

I,

45:05

when I had little kids, I remember thinking, if I can just get all the washing away, and if I can just get the house looking tidy. And if I can just have my children wearing matching socks, the world will be right. I, I honestly felt like I had some control. Waterfall I was, you know, we we forget that.

45:33

Try as we might to control these things, try as we might to match up our socks, and keep the floor clean, and have all the right ingredients for dinner. You know, we can have all of those things, all of those ducks in a row, but people still get sick. You know, people come people go the world natural disasters happen. The world is messy. And the world is complicated. And we're a complicated, messy part of that. And

46:01

the sooner that we can accept that that is that's our lot and show up with some grace and love and humility. And a little bit of curiosity. I love that you love curiosity, if you should can show up with a little bit of curiosity about how the world works, and what's going on, then I think life is a little bit more fun. And I think that's a good thing.

46:27

Absolutely. One of the greatest gifts I got last year was from my kinesiology test. And she said, grief clarifies living. And I loved what you said before. You're either living or you're dying. And so my final question to you that we haven't really had questions, we've gone on tangents, and I love it. But you are a teacher, and you're very good at coming back to answering the question, I can see the teacher and you in that.

46:52

Attendee come back to the past. So that's great. But my question to you is, what does living a life you love look like now?

47:02

Hmm.

47:04

I think I'm really fortunate that I do live a life that I love now.

47:10

A little bit of background, I in my 40s, I spent six months in bed, I spent several years trying to work out what was going on. And it was only in my early 50s, that I

47:26

found a practitioner who was able to send my blood to America, and we got a test done for chronic Lyme disease. So, so I have health challenges. And so in my early 50s, I came to this realization, and I still

47:44

I realized that again every day, because I realized that I wanted to do it all, I wanted to do it all.

47:54

But in this physical realm, my body has limits, my stuffed animal body has limits. But with care, this soft animal body can take me to the places and do the things that I want to do.

48:09

So

48:11

what living a great life for me looks like is that I spend a lot of time resting.

48:16

I spent a lot of time musing on what joy looks like for me.

48:21

And then

48:23

I have to work out what my body needs, so that I can live those things and do those things. So at the moment, I'm actually

48:35

in the middle of gathering together my resources. Because my partner and I are traveling to England, for this summer, we're going to three ukulele festivals in three weekends, we're going to be ukulele TRAGICS across the UK. So that's good.

48:54

Yeah, I love it. That's what it looks like for you. And this is the question it just it's so different for everyone. And what I am calling people to do and in my upcoming book, The Art of pleasures, it's what does a life you love look like. Now? Is that five years ago that question in one year, it's different. And so it's absolutely I think that you can reassess and you can check in with every day. It's not a sixth, it's not a point of success or a milestone. Like am I living a life I love in that answer. Sometimes, some days will be no, no, no, that's right. What can we do about that? Or is it just hit day? Or is it that no, I'm really out of alignment with you know, I said I was going to do the internet. I'm doing that. What am I doing? Yeah, funnily enough. You may have noticed that there were no matching socks in my in my ideal life as it stands now, and I have to point you to a song by Zoe Mulford called Life is too short to fold underwear

50:00

because I think it kind of says a lot.

50:03

Be the new my new mantra checking forever. I'm so grateful that you came into my world. Amanda, you have a very lovely voice that no wonder you do what you do because you can just hear it. It's very calming and soothing. I want to listen to you. I'm sure you were a great teacher and help people. You are a teacher now as well in teaching this this philosophy and boy, I guess approach to death. How can we get in contact with you?

50:33

So you can find me I hang out on Facebook under Amanda the curious but I also have a page called dying to ask.

50:41

And I have stuff advice and

50:46

notes and the occasional book review and I

50:51

have stuff there and I also you can find me

50:55

curious creative.

50:59

I love it. Thank you so much for today and for the work you're doing it is deeply important. And I hope we get to have more conversations because it's

51:10

profound and important thing happy. Very, very happy to

51:19

thank you for listening lovely one. I hope this has inspired you to dream big and start creating a life you love today. If you love what you're hearing, don't forget to follow and rate on Spotify and rate review and subscribe on iTunes. It helps other awesome people to find this podcast and get motivated and inspired as well. Want to stay connected. Come and join the live a life you love group on Facebook or connect with me on Instagram, ml level.au The same as my website. But all the details are in the show notes. Lovely. I'll see you next episode for more inspiration, motivation and freedom seeking Now go out there and live a life you love