Danielle Phyland: Balancing full-time work and travel

# Danielle Phyland - book case study

Tue, May 07, 2024 11:47AM • 57:56

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

travel, experience, writing, trip, job, people, work, bit, great, holiday, tourism, opportunities, guess, learning, absolutely, gold coast, book, early, paid, live

00:07

welcome to the podcast and the book. Danielle Fire Island.

00:14

Hi, Emma, lovely to be chatting to you, not our first rodeo with podcast, but it is on this podcast, which is super fun. So can you tell us in your words a little bit about you? Absolutely. Yes. So I'm a Melbourne based travel writer, I've been writing for over six years, I've been traveling for many, many, many more than that, I'd say over 20. And we'll be very flexible around that. I also have a full time gig. So I work in the tourism industry writing strategic plans for businesses and government. But my first number one passion is travel. And I travel as much as I possibly can. And I love sharing my stories with my community at the adventures of Potter and Ruby. Yeah, it's fun. Sometimes I'm talking to people and they go, Oh, my friend might even travel more than you do. And I'm like, challenge accepted. But if it's about you, I'd be like, Okay, maybe we've got a competition.

01:17

I think, yeah, we'd like to trade stories and

01:21

different types of travel at different times. But we've also had the pleasure of traveling together, which was, yeah, we certainly have to have a wonderful magical India, which was amazing to travel with you. And you've been there so many times to get your insights as well was fantastic. And that was your second visit. It was yes, I was lucky enough to have gone to Registan on an intrepid to. For my 30th birthday, I did a bit of a three continent three decades kind of gig. So yeah, India was an amazing experience. And I highly recommend it to anyone that's pondering a trip to India. And a bit of a different experience, too, because you did the Intrepid, which is definitely kind of common. I mean, I feel like people do that, like completely out of a backpack every, you know, $2 a day type travel through in deer or like the hippie trail back in the day, or there's like the group tours. And people think that that's probably one of the only ways you can travel. And then we went to a different level, again, where we did a luxury bespoke, private, yes, which we were very spoiled. And it was just the best experience having our own driver and our daily snacks and wonderful adventures where we could kind of make our own itinerary as well as we all had different interests on board. So that was really lovely. Now, I wanted you to come and talk today. Because, you know, I think sometimes people do look at me and what I do, and they say like, Well, that's all well and good, because you've got your own business, and you can make it work for you. And yeah, you can go and travel a lot.

02:55

Obviously, also, we both have the travel writing in common. But you know, what I love about you is that you, like you said, have a full time job and have for many years. Yeah. And it's wonderful that it's in the tourism space. So I'd love to hear a bit more about your job. And I guess what, and I know you've over the time that I've known you that jobs look different. But like, typically, you're a full time worker, like what does your job look like? Yeah, absolutely. So I work full time on a regular job. But over the years, I've kind of managed to be able to adapt that to my travel lifestyle. So obviously in your beginning days, you kind of toe the line a little bit, but I guess even then I was still taking my annual leave and actually going traveling and I was Contiki tour guide for many years in my early travel career. And so I used to take my annual leave from my full time government job and I would go and do a Contiki tour, I was working as the guide, but I got the experience of basically the holiday and got paid for it. So not many people can kind of say that they get paid to snorkel on the Great Barrier Reef. And I was pretty lucky that I got to do that, taking passengers around and showing them my country that really has a special place in my heart. So that was probably the first instance of where I sort of learned to travel and work and build it all in together. And I guess then as I got more senior roles, I managed to be able to purchase additional leaves. So everyone gets the four weeks leave, I was unable to purchase additional leaves so that then I could make bigger trips. So my kind of ritual is I do a big trip a year which is usually sort of a month long, big jaunt to a big destination, usually a long way away. And then I'll do sort of what I call my cheap and cheerful trip, which is usually sort of a two week you know, Southeast Asia or something that's a little bit closer to home that doesn't take as much time in the travel days. So

05:00

I do that I also have negotiated a nine day fortnight, which means every second week, I get a long weekend, which is amazing. So that allows me to do little trips, interstate domestic but I also do silly things like go to New Zealand for a long weekend. Which is to listen to that sit that might sound well no, actually, it's easier here. I guess it's silly, because it's it is a three hour flight. But in Europe, they that's, that's normal, only country just drive over the border or, you know, two hour flight and you're you're anywhere. Exactly. And, you know, I grew up in rural Victoria. So I would drive longer than that to go and see my family. So it's quite an easy thing for me to jump on a plane for three hours and go and visit friends or have adventures in New Zealand or other nearby countries and continence. So I start early to be able to earn that nine day fortnight, I still do the same hours as someone that works full time. But I get up early and get my gym workout done so that then I can go to work and earn that extra day off. So basically, I am away most every weekend, whether that's near or far or visiting friends, I've got lots of friends and family that are at amazing destinations, like yourself on the Gold Coast. But also my family or interstate. So it means that I can take a little bit more time and go and see them but also travel as well later this year. I'm also going to wa for a weekend because I took advantage of a new flight route and a cheap deal.

06:44

And that's it. And I think sometimes people think oh, it's not enough time. But it can be so refreshing just a couple of nights one night even, you know, doing even a night in a hotel, like just being in a different location. But being like transported to a new place. Sometimes Yeah, look, I'd love a week. But actually sometimes you don't need a week like especially I mean, I'll say again in Europe. But same with some cities. It's nice to just even go to Adelaide for two nights and do a lot of stuff. And it's great Gold Coast two days, we can do a whole lot of stuff. You did a lot of things in Brisbane, you were just up this weekend. You can do a lot of things in that time. But people I think people often think they're like, Oh, if I don't have a whole week or 10 days or whatever. It's not worth it. My husband being one of them. Yeah, absolutely. There's lots of people with that mindset. But I think, you know, hopefully you can always go back when it's sort of domestic or weekend type type trips that are a little bit easier. So you don't have to try and see everything in the one visit you know, pick out those things that are really attractive to you and really go and enjoy them. And then if there's other things, it's a great reason to come back. Yeah, yeah, just to try something new. And as well you're you're a big fan of the like the little jaunt as well, so like exploring so many urine Victoria. And there's so many little places. I mean, I've never been to Daylesford I've never been to Phillip Island. I lived there for three years and I there's places that the Grampians would love to go there. There's some wonderful places around

08:18

not very far away that make the most of a in two nights or even one. Yeah, absolutely. Like this coming weekend, I've got a trip down to the Gippsland coast. And it's a three hour drive. Going with a fellow travel rider will drive down early on the Saturday morning, we'll trip down the way visiting cafes and nature spots all along the way. And then we'll stay overnight and we'll come back, like on the Sunday afternoon. So it's an overnight but we're going to see so many amazing things in such a short time. And I think, you know, the willingness to drive or to jump in a plane and, and maybe even use that travel time wisely as well. You know, you can listen to music, you can listen to podcasts. It's still enjoyable space. Yeah, yeah, it's not you can enjoy the act of travel. It's some of the actual transportation piece but yeah, well, Matthew and I were talking the other week just about what he wants to do potentially some Well, I want him to but he does to the disabled winter sport Australia, which I volunteer for their their training, and it's in Victoria, that Falls Creek or at Hotham, generally it falls is their base. And that's five and a half hours from Melbourne. So obviously, coming down from here, we'd have to fly and then we get up there and he I sort of said, I'm a big fan of doing the fly in the night before so do the Friday night to get the extra time. I guess you can totally leave on Saturday morning, but get the extra time. And then yeah, leave sort of late afternoon Sunday, so you're kind of getting an extra half day in there. But he was like well, you know, it's not possible because

10:00

As yeah, there's not a ton I said, but that's what we always did. We did a we had the camps that they run. That's how we did it, we finished work, everybody finished work. Whenever five o'clock, I didn't run my business, but I would work that day, finish the way everybody else did. And we'd get on the bus and we'd be doing up to the mountain, we'd get up there at 1130 12 o'clock. But like you said, you could snooze on the bus, or we could do whatever you need to do, maybe do more work if you needed to, and you can work in the car. And then we'd ski for two days, and it felt like a week. And then we were back to Melbourne on Sunday night, same late night, like it's a full weekend.

10:37

Maybe don't want to do it like that every weekend. But to get that experience, that's just how it worked. And I was like, that's pretty standard. It is yeah. And, and you it's worthwhile for the experience that you actually get to have. On the other side of it. You know, what's of a few hours in a plane or a few hours in a car, when on the other side of it you skiing in the snow in the snow fields, or you're having a beautiful spar experience in Daylesford or you've gone to WA and you're swimming in crystal clear waters, or you're in New Zealand hiking, those three hours on the planer are a distant memory when you're experiencing such amazing things. Yeah, it is something that I don't know if you hear it a lot too. But we just oh, I can't do that. I don't have time. And I have to say that.

11:28

After COVID, I probably did get a little bit of there like I felt, I think because we'll I started doing longer trips, because I felt like we might get stuck or we might get locked out. Or it might be my last chance I've been coming to Melbourne I've got to come and do all the things because I don't know if I can get back soon. So I did make longer trips. And then remember this liberating feeling of like, oh, I have to just go down for the day. Like if I've got a work event on or, or a night because I want to come down for someone's birthday party, which I'm doing in a few weeks, someone 60s, they'll fly down on the Saturday, fly back on a Sunday. And it was so liberating that I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't have to go for a whole week. I can, yeah, it costs more to get paid for multiple flights. But if that's all the time that I have, and I want to be there for that thing, or I need to be there for that thing, then you can do that. Absolutely, you can so make it happen. And I think COVID was a real wake up call for everyone and particularly for travelers who felt like they were trapped with so long. Now any opportunity I have that I do not have anything pressing, I am out of here, even if it's an afternoon, I'll go to a nearby national park or drive to the beach or just to experience the freedom of being able to go because we were locked down for so long. And you know, we have so many beautiful places in Australia and in the world to see like, I don't want to miss that. Yeah, absolutely. And so I'd love to come back to when you talk about the Contiki. And you said not many people do that. Obviously, we have that in common to the tour managing. But it's funny again, I think some people are like, they will have a very love to hear your definition. I think you and I have talk probably more about travel and traveling, as opposed to holidays. And I think the way that especially I can't speak for someone in a full time job is like I don't want to give up my holiday to go and work. Yeah, you know, you've explained that it felt differently for you. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, obviously I was I was younger, so the opportunity to earn a little bit of extra cash on my holidays, but still effectively have holiday. I knew the ropes. I'd been a tour guide for a few years beforehand. So I'd done a few seasons. So didn't seem like work because I knew what I needed to do. And I was doing one or two tours within that time, that I get to see incredible things. Yeah, you have to get up early, and you have to deal with lost luggage and you have to remember the names of 40 people.

14:12

But it's enjoyable. It's an amazing experience. And you know, if you can get paid while doing incredible things, why not? Yeah, and you had a better deal than I did. Because I don't get I get paid for I don't get paid an income or even being paid. And you know, you and I discussed this as well that if there's a you know, with the Indus bound, the travel company that I partner with or you know, it's conversation probably needs to be had another day, but the retreats that I have, you know, that if I needed a facilitator or host or and, you know, I had sort of a thought that if I got sick or family crisis, you'd be probably one of the first people I call because I'm like, I trust you. I know you know how to travel. I know you know how to hold a group. Potentially you will probably skip the workshops that are delivered on the Richard

15:00

or a

15:02

cocktail, or video record me and my usual shooting videos, she'll do phone calls after just coming into it. But you know, it's like, yeah, I will I know that you could do that. And,

15:12

you know, like, there's ways to make it work that, you know, yet whether it be paid or paid for.

15:21

I'm open to both. And it's, I'd be like, well, if I'm not getting paid, I'm not doing it. And I was like, okay. Yeah,

15:29

that there's things that are different to money. And I guess travel writings a little bit like that, like, sometimes you don't always get paid cash for the article. But you get the experience. And, you know, some of the experiences that I've had, I would never pay the money that they are like, it would be just against my travel budget to go, Oh, it's $2,000 a night, or that program is $4,000 for the four days, like, if that was me reaching into my pocket to go,

16:03

you know, $4,000? Would I do it? No, I'd probably think twice about it. If it was incredible, absolutely, I would do it. I've just come back from Antarctica. So I know how it feels. But when I get to do those things as part of travel, writing, it doesn't matter that I don't get paid for the article, because I get the experience that I might not otherwise have had the opportunity to have. I recently went on a retreat to absolute sanctuary in Thailand. And that was all provided for me, I had to just get there, which was the flights, which was a pretty low cost compared to what the value of the result was. So I think money is obviously important, we all need it. But I think you can look at it a little bit differently. And see what there's values, particularly travelers, I think, do see that there's value in other ways and means and there's opportunities to travel without it or being related to cash. Yeah, and I mean, obviously, you've got the best of both worlds in the, you have a full time job. So the income kind of gets covered. I think I do think keeping money in your pocket is as important as

17:19

you know, like earning an income, you know, approach, you know, not just spending money, but still getting to do the thing. And saving, even saving, getting it at a heavily discounted price. You know, we talked the other day about an article I wrote, you know, and I think you're very good at this actually, something you do more than I do is reaching out before and pitching and getting those

17:42

letters. But I did do it for Chicago, and I got to stay in downtown Chicago at a place that should have cost you 400 or $450 a night, which at that time probably wasn't in the budget. We got it for 200, which is probably what we would have had to pay on the outskirts. So really funky, cool hotel and wrote a story about it and got to be in the heart of Chicago. So yeah, a little bit of work that still work, like gotta run or like, right before and pitch it and have a conversation. And then we got to write afterwards. But it's not terribly taxing. Yeah. And again, you get amazing experiences. And you can potentially make contacts and meet local people. Like there's all these benefits from a little bit of work. Yeah. Yeah. And so, tell me, when did the travel writing start? Like, you know, we can talk about how we met as well. But you probably in the early days, really? Yeah, very, very early days. So I've always loved writing. And even as a kid, I love writing stories and things like that. But I've been traveling for years and predominantly solo travel, but also with friends and family, on the rare occasion. But I used to post on my social media, you know, when Facebook was probably really the only thing and so many people would ask me a million questions, or even people that I met and was chatting with, they'd be like, Oh, tell me more about your trip Tibet, or this trip or that trip. And someone said to me one day, you should just write a blog. So then you can just direct people there.

19:22

And I was like, Oh, I didn't really even know what a blog really was.

19:28

Back in the day, back in the day, yes, way back in the day. So I went in and did some research and I stumbled across Darren rouse who runs pro blogger. And it was a blogging resource and he ran conference, and it was in Queensland, so I thought, you know, if I'm going to be serious about this, I'm gonna do it. So I built my own website, which I look at now and was very embarrassing, but you

20:00

Got my own website started somewhere,

20:03

started writing articles, started learning all about things, listen to all the YouTube videos, podcasts, everything, and took myself off to the conference, which, of course was amazing because that's where we met. But I invested in myself and my opportunity to become a travel writer and build my network. And it was, I think, three or four days at the conference and met people and learned things. And I also met their fellow travel rider, Jenny Lord, who I write with a lot, and we now do trips together. And we pitch for things together. Because we both have different audiences with similar interests. So we're able to leverage off each other's experiences and contacts. So it was one of the most valuable learning things. And yes, since then, I've just continued to grow and grow, I rebuilt and rebranded my website, I got a grant through COVID, to be able to develop my writing further and develop my website. I've taken photography lessons I've written now for the Herald Sun. I've been featured on multiple podcasts and multiple websites written for she did find an online women's magazine, and one hour out and a whole bunch of other smaller things that I've done as all part of starting a passion really, and feeling I guess, a bit of a void. Yeah. Love it. So that was 2016. Wasn't it on the Gold Coast that we Yes. Probably would have started my website, maybe six months before they were pretty green. Yeah, I was going from an era of when Yes, people didn't know what a blog was. I did mine in 2000. I'd actually started my first ever blog was 2006. When I did my gap here on oh, gosh, I can't remember what the platform was called. But it was like, you know, it was like web developer kite. You know, people. I think I asked a guy who was into like, techie web stuff at high school, what should I use and

22:09

Netscape Navigator or something? It just was like, basically a photo when a couple of words, which I think was the early days of Instagram, really, but then I was yet in the heyday of the blogger, and then you know, now I feel like Blogger went to then a dirty word. Now. Yeah, like, oh, a blada. Like, gone through this sort of ride of it. But you and I, actually, yeah, we met there. And then giving you a bit of guidance, from my experience, but because we hung out at well vision where we became blogging ambassadors, yeah, absolutely. That was an amazing experience as well. And then getting to meet a whole bunch of other bloggers and, and writers and hear about different ways and different opportunities to be able to write and whether that's have experiences, or potentially make money and tell a great story and support a great cause. There's so many opportunities to do that. So it was a wonderful experience to be able to be a part of the World Vision blogger day, which was great, and learn about all the amazing work that Worldvision do. So that was incredible. Yeah, which is another way to and they did actually run

23:24

trips as well. So some of us got to go on trips with, you know, to places that yeah, we probably never actually have access to. But also

23:35

Yeah, got to learn about yeah, there's you said, learn about things. And then I think it was like early influencer as well, because what I liked about and that's Lou Acheson was running that was that she recognized social influence and social media influence, because even my blog numbers weren't huge. But they took into account all your numbers, but also, they didn't just go, Oh, you Peter, and have you know, we had like eight and Riley who was one of the top lawyers in Australia, like most read, you know, then just be like, Oh, if your numbers aren't there, you can't do it. Like it was like, the breadth of topic and the breadth of

24:08

you know, some of the people with a kid that had kids blogs, or some of them had, you know, lifestyle and so it was had traveled and some of them had education, like they were all different focuses and so they were quite wise in understanding. Yes, you know, the value and that you didn't have to be I love that you were quite green to it and that you know, you still you obviously had the passion and going all in on it despite you know, having your work as well but

24:37

I love that how it's progressed and seeing your journey. But did you always you know, you've had the corporate job, did you you want to early on set out to travel and work liked it. Was that something that you thought of when you were younger or in your early career? I guess I think you know, I was bitten by the travel bug pretty early on in in life and

25:00

I started traveling when I was 12 years old internationally, but you know, as a baby in the bassinet, I was sort of traveling in the back of the station wagon up to Queensland because our family were always scattered all over the country. But I think it wasn't even a question. You know, I was always going to travel and work and travel has always been a passion and a priority for me. And now if I do go for a new job, or, or someone taps me on the shoulder, I tell them straight up, I travel a lot.

25:36

Because it is part of and I will work to the absolute bone for you. But travel is very important to me. And if that means that I work longer days and extra hours, or whatever it might be for me to be able to have my travel, then I'm certainly willing to do that. And for me, it's it's worth every late night and every early morning for me to be able to do what I truly love, which is travel and explore and meet new people and learn about new cultures and just continually be curious. And it Yeah, and look, that's a lot of the misconception, you know, they just see the galavanting. And they see that going around, and oh, Isn't it lovely for them? And, you know, you and I both know their sacrifices, and you've sort of threaded that throughout. But, you know, well, first and foremost, you have the job, you have a full time job. And then you're doing the travel writing, earning additional income is an extra job. So you're definitely working.

26:34

When you worked on your holiday, always put it in a vertical with like your holidays early in the day. But you know, I think what are some of the sacrifices that you make?

26:44

Um, I guess I'm not very good at relaxing.

26:51

Strangely enough, so I'm probably, and luckily, I'm getting probably better at it. But that sort of slowing down rest relaxation time, is when I'm writing articles, pitching articles learning about writing, learning about the new algorithm in Instagram. I'm not sitting on the couch watching Netflix, you know, I have to admit, I've never seen Game of Thrones, because well, everyone was watching Game of Thrones. I was watching YouTube videos of how to work with WordPress and learning and you know, sending emails off to publications. And so probably some of that

27:33

pop culture sort of social relaxation stuff, I guess. Maybe I've missed but in my eyes, I guess I haven't missed it. Because I've been going in planning trips or going on adventures and doing things.

27:50

Look, I don't think I really sacrifice too much. I mean, I guess I never have a bank of leave. Yeah. So yes, you give your leave in order to travel but you also make extra leave. And like you've said you do you do work, like decent hours. And I think some people are not willing to say like, No, I want to finish it for I want to do that. And it's like, well, then you can't then have the you know, I'm not I'm not a you can do it all. And you can have it all I'm always saying you. You can show you can have it all, but not all at once. And don't don't take for granted that yeah, like we're writing these articles sometimes late at night. Or they're early in the morning or, you know, having to you know, you do have to reach out for it. We don't just get called up and your would you like to go here today? Like I mean, your email like that, but it's quite rare. It's a scam anyway. But yes, yeah. Had to build relationships. Yeah. Eight years in the making, eight, nine years in the making to be able to just get to go on a retreat. That you still made a sacrifice for you still paid before us. Yeah. Fine. You still chose to do that instead of doing

29:03

something else. So be like, Oh, I don't want to miss my friend's birthday. All right, well, then you don't get the retreat. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I have probably missed some things like weddings and things like that because I was overseas. But I mean, I think if people understand who you are and what you are in 99% of my time, my trip was booked first.

29:27

It's even hard to get ahead of you.

29:31

To get ahead of my curve, usually I'm planned a couple of years out so well, I guess I've experienced that. I'm like my next retreat, like booked.

29:43

Okay, can you run this one for me? I can make time for that. You do, but you do come to my wedding. So there we go. That was Yeah.

29:53

Yeah, and that's the thing too, you know, I'm a big fan of a destination wedding and it almost becomes a an

30:00

negotiable that I'm coming to a destination wedding.

30:04

Yes. How does one get us out of the hitch? It's probably said the best excuse. I think I've only missed like probably two or three overseas weddings. And it's like, because I'm probably Absolutely. That's a lot miss two or three important ones that I feel I regret or feel sad about the other ones. You know, it was a choice. It's like, yeah, no, I'm not willing to spend $1,000 to come.

30:29

No, sorry. Like, this is more important or the work thing or whatever's going on? Or yeah, what I want to do it more important. Yeah, yeah. And you prioritize like, you do get that email sometimes that says, Would you like to go to the Philippines for five days free of charge on a female trip and write some articles. And that actually happened to me, the very day I started my most recent job. And I was like, Ah, I really wanted to.

31:01

But I don't think it's a good look on your very best day to not be available, because I'm going to the Philippines to write an article. So you know, I had to say no, so you know that that was a sacrifice in my eyes? Well, it goes both ways. And I did the same that as well. You got to weigh up the cost. And I think, you know, the cost, or versus the, you know, the gain or the Yeah, I had that many years before, when I did have a bit more freedom. But say I'd committed to a job. And it was like, do I burn this bridge and damage this relationship, potentially get no more income, or like for this six day trip to Bali, and Darwin, which would have been fantastic. And I didn't know what was expected of me at the time, as well as like, how much do I have to go and like pitch for ages and write heaps of articles? And what do they want from me in order? It turns out, not very much, a little bit annoying. But I could manage that relationship. And I needed I was at that age, I needed income to pay my rent, I was just me. And yeah, I gotta pay the rent, so I can't

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have those opportunities for me now. And maybe I've learned this a few times after what I think of as missing out. I now say, Look, I'm actually not available for that particular time. But is there another opportunity when we might be able to revisit this experience? Or can I do this another time? 99.9% of the time, everyone comes back and says yes, yes. You've got to know that people can't they understand people drop everything. Even if you are in your own business and freelancing, we just sometimes have things that are prior booked or that are not

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gettable out of all of

32:52

that. And the same as us, I guess they see a value in it as well. So if they say yes, they clearly see a value in potential future opportunities. So there's always a positive that can come out of a no, yeah. And so what would be your advice for someone who's looking to include more travel in their work, or life, or both?

33:19

would say, think about what's important what your priorities are, I wouldn't say I live a hugely extravagant lifestyle at home, because travel is my priority. So I will sacrifice you know, potentially

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new, I'm not very brand orientated, but a branded, whatever that might be on trend at that time, and stick with the one that I've had for five years, because that saves me 100 and however many dollars, and it means that I can travel or I can do that experience, or I can add that to the petrol bill, when I'm going on a on a road trip. So I think, work out what your priorities are, what you're willing to, to what you don't need, what you're willing to sacrifice, I guess to have those travel experiences. And think about what what's on your bucket list? What do you really, really want to do, what are your non negotiables if if there's something that you can work towards whether that might be you know, banking up, you leave, asking if there is a payment to be able to purchase extra leave, even if it's a one off, maybe it's just for one trip of a lifetime that you really, really want to do. Think about speaking to your boss or looking to see if there's a program where you can take you leave at maybe half pay and you can get more half time and you can get more leave, purchase leave, look at other ways as well. Maybe working longer days during nine day fortnight or using other kinds of leave as well. There's there's always a way to work around it and you

35:00

The majority of the time I think employers understand when people have trips planned or things that they they are passionate about. And there's there's ways It depends, obviously what you think. Yeah. I think people assume that, oh, they're gonna say no, it's like, Have you asked, have you? Have you? Like you said, if especially if you're going for a new role, be very clear upfront and communicate what's important to you? And don't go in being like, Oh, yes, yes, I'll do everything and then go, oh, by the way, I've got a four week holiday, probably not be very happy. But if you upfront and you're clear, and then you maybe it isn't the right, fit for either with you if that's not possible, and you've changed jobs. I mean, not so recently. But I do remember at one point you were traveling, you were kind of working remotely. Is that was that this role, or the last role that you were? At the moment, there's a transition, I think, in most roles, that there's the ability to travel and work remotely. In my current role, I travel a lot for my work anyway, which again, is a bonus for me. It's like my secret little boy. Yeah. Well, you're in the tourism industry you chose Yes, we do you get to travel, travel a bit. But yeah, look, it's certainly a possibility to again, negotiate those options. And given that all my family live interstate,

36:25

sometimes I've been able to negotiate particularly around special holidays, like Easter or Christmas and things like that, that maybe I leave a little bit earlier, or I come back a little bit later. But I might work remotely for a few days to enable me to have a longer period of time with my family, and I'm super lucky that my mom lives in a beautiful beach house 15 steps from the beach. So it's not too hard to sit inside and do some work to be rewarded, then at the end of the day to step out the door and be on the beach. So there are certainly those opportunities for people to have a think about as well. And can you define for me as well? Like, I think they get used interchangeably sometimes. I don't know, I have? What is the difference between travel and tourism? Or how do they connect?

37:17

Well, travel is probably more about that sort of bookable type experience. So travel agent, that sort of travel work, tourism is probably more about the industry related work. So we work I guess, sort of behind the scenes on the strategy and the destination management plans and the business cases and the funding opportunities that might exist. Whereas travel, I would describe as more the bookable sort of options. So a travel agent, like consultant, airlines,

37:50

all of those things, wholesalers, that type of probably more consumer facing, whereas we're more industry facing in our tourism. Yeah, and tourism. It's been really interesting living up here on the Gold Coast understanding, and I'm in an organization called Women in tourism. But like, how many people actually contribute?

38:12

You know, that, you know, basically, like, almost every business could be involved in the tourism, because it's like, we need to make this destination

38:21

enjoyable for people. And if they have a bad experience on the road, or like, they go to a crappy provider, who's not like just the theme parks and the restaurants and the hotels, but they have a bad experience at another one, then all the infrastructure was bad. And so that like getting there is horrible, but the thing you know, I think they have experiences with festivals recently that the Yeah, the concert might be great, but all of the stuff around the town isn't set up for the capacity. Therefore, that tourism's that aside, let it down, if you will. We're all we're all part of making that destination, what it is. That's it, and we talk about the visitor economy, which is exactly what you're saying. It's everything that is inclusive, of, of all that entire visitor experience. So it's things like petrol stations, petrol stations, you wouldn't assume are in the north, especially when you're

39:19

trying to take a rental car back, I've had no

39:23

control station, directions, how many people go, I don't know where I'm going and they pull into a petrol station, like there's a massive role for a lot of non traditional tourism businesses to be in the game and in those destinations that are doing really well have been able to get their entire industry and all the sectors on board to understand that they're part of the visitor economy. I love that term visitor economy Very good. Well, and you're very well placed in that because you do think about the details and you do think about many elements of of a traveler's

40:00

experience and not just Yes, the yes, yeah, you saw the Taj Mahal, you know, it's it's what yeah, that and that's really important to me through my travel writing as well is that

40:12

I guess it's that authenticity. And I know that's used as a bit of a buzzword. But for me, it's not just about Arctic, I've seen the Eiffel Tower tick. I've seen the Taj Mahal. It's the experience of that it's the people that I met, it's the local food that I tasted. It's

40:28

the walk on the way there. It's the nature that I see. It's that all encompassing experience, it's not just the tick, and flick, kind of. And I think a lot of people it was some of those experiences are ruined. I think the pyramids are probably the most famous one that you don't, the picture that you see these pyramids, out of the sand is not what you I haven't been, but by all accounts it it's not and, and because of the way that they haven't really catered to the volume of tourists. It's not a great experience while the Taj Mahal in the years that I've been going there, they're really working on their sustainability and the eagerness around it, they've done a lot of work on the pathway up to it so that you know, from and that they recognize that this is their country's biggest draw card. So let's make the city its Agra, not the whole city is great, but like definitely the main key points they have thought about. We've got people coming. And this is this is the moneymaker. Okay, good. It's really interesting. Yeah, there's so much and I mean, you know, I started out my professional career managing Visitor Information Centers. So I can not not go into an information center, not not look at brochures, I could not look at signs and good. Finally, they had a Wayfinding plan here.

41:53

Yeah, you can't. And it's like, well, what's that tour managing? I can't, you can't go on a tour now.

41:58

For myself, I can't go on a tour without thinking I do the headcount or, you know, thinking

42:05

so what time are we leave it up? I really think I'm checking up on them are like a mystery shopper, but I'm just very interested in them like to study Yes. Shepherding, I can't help it you've seen behind the curtain.

42:16

Absolutely. And I'm a big, big advocate for the the value add that is, is not the costly value add. It's the oh, I happen to buy a packet of Tim Tams one for everyone on the coach so that you can all experience what is really special about Australia. And something that we all have with our cup of Milo is a Tim Tam. So I really look for that when I travel. And I may sometimes drop that to the tour guide or it would be nice if we could have champagne at sunset.

42:57

It is little touches and it's wide. Disney is one of the best because you know

43:03

someone was talking about it. They said you know they've they've had the whole day at Disney. They've had a wonderful time. But Mickey and Minnie are at the at the gate waving goodbye. And you're like, you've already done your whole, like, they're still at the very last second trying to get you know, make sure you've had experience. Like I went on the cruise ship. And I was so shouldn't have been a surprise. But Mickey was there on the stairs waving when we got there. And you're like, Oh, I had like it was such a special moment. And then it was like it was like dark. But also they do think of those things. And that's why they can charge extortionate amounts because they're very good.

43:35

They do deliver the magic. So

43:38

look, I think in in the tourism industry, it's about passion. And if people love their jobs, if you're a tour guide, and you love your job, if you're a winemaker and you love your job, if you're a waitstaff and you love your job, you will always give the best experience to people. And you hear so many stories about people that say, Oh, we had this amazing waiter, and she was local. And we heard about her story. And she's literally doing her job, but she's passionate about it, and she cares. So she's sharing those stories that give those people a lifetime memory. And that's the biggest thing about travel is that it's memories and experiences that people have for a lifetime. So, you know, as a worker on the other side of it, if you can do one teeny tiny little thing that gives that person that memory for life, then my job's done, tick.

44:38

Sorry, good. Now, do you think that we I have my term bleisure, which is the title of my book, and it's something I'm toying with so the combination of business and business and leisure, do you think the bleisure life is possible and sustainable? So?

44:55

Yeah, I do. I think it is, and I think we're seeing more of that perfect

45:00

Kili post COVID People kind of had a little bit of a reality check of what's actually really important. Does a family need two cars? Or do we want two cars? Like, if we don't have two cars? Does that mean we can go on a family holiday? Or does that mean that mom doesn't have to work or dad doesn't have to work and the kids don't have to go into childcare and we save money, and we can still have a holiday. And there's been a real shift, I think, given the way that people are thinking and valuing their time and and their leisure time. Because it's precious, it's really precious to us. So I think it certainly can, can happen and can work. And, you know, you're a perfect example of it. I'm an example of it. It's just the way that you build it into your life and into your lifestyle and the choices that you make. But I think we're seeing a lot more of a you know, as the younger people are coming through the digital nomads, the influences, you know, they're getting out of bed when it suits them. They're not a slave to the clock, but they're still working and they're still money. It's just different. And I think generationally, that's a little bit of a bitter pill to swallow and a little bit tough for some people to understand. But it works for people and if it means that their quality of life is better. Why not? Don't like you said like, I mean, it's go back to that visitor economy as well, like the traveling and the leisure lifestyle is actually helping our national life, we'll just stay put, it's not helping them reliant. We're so heavily reliant as we saw with COVID on international tourists here is increasing domestic tourism. By having these little joints and little explorations and having that traveler mindset of seeing, how can we include a little bit more leisure even just, you know, like, just even if you didn't leave Melbourne, you would still have years of entertainment. If you do use the greater Melbourne area, you would have years of things to do. And it's the little things to you know, sometimes it's the walk along the creek or the walk on the arrow or the sunset from the beach. It doesn't actually really even have to cost you any free trip just ride around the tram.

47:24

Great gifts eat healthy. Yeah. And it's it's maximizing those leisure opportunities. Yes, we we all work. And you know, sometimes we work long days, sometimes people get short days. But what's stopping us jumping in the car driving half an hour to a nice spot and having a picnic and watching a sunset? sunset and sunrise happen every day? So we

47:50

show every night? Exactly. Find a spot and enjoy it. Don't worry, I love that tip.

47:58

I will just ask you, you did say look before that you're a little bit. You know, I think we have this common common to that you like to add some jam pack a lot of things in. So how do you make time for self care? And I want to actually I'm just going to comment on one of your points that you were like, I don't rest a lot. I don't relax a lot. I would just comment that you're resting and relaxing looks different to other people.

48:22

Yes, word to no matter. How do you make time for self care? What does self care and balance I'll put in inverted commas quotation marks, what do you have in your schedule?

48:36

Well, I was lucky enough to go on a yoga retreat to Bali. And I'd always been someone that had struggled with meditation and yoga in the past. I'm a busy person, I love to exercise I ever exercise every day, I get up at 530 Every morning, so I can go to the gym before I start my day.

48:55

But this yoga retreat, it gave me the opportunity to try all of these different types of yoga and work out what was for me and what wasn't. And I experienced yoga nidra which is a spoken yoga and meditation and it was the best thing I've ever experienced. So I took away the things that I liked from that experience. And whilst I was working, because I was writing articles, and I was experiencing, I guess more of that wellness side. And I've bought that practice home with me. And now I practice yoga on a regular basis. And I found a lovely, adorable little yoga studio that I fallen in love with and I'm a member there and I put that into my practice and that all came about because I was working as you were working, traveling. Yeah, you were pleasuring I was measuring.

49:51

We'll find as many ways

49:54

that we will verb it.

49:57

Yes, certainly that um

50:01

My Sunday afternoon ritual is to go and buy, buy the newspaper. I know it's unheard of these days that people buy the newspaper. But I buy the newspaper for the Travel section. And I'm buying myself a cup of tea, my favorite tea, and I will see it and I will my it's my little cheeky guilty pleasure. If the sun's out, I might do it in the hammock. If not, I'll sit inside the coffee table, and I'll read the Travel section from cover to cover. And that's my little relaxation time, still doing what I love, and not traveling as such, but traveling vicariously through the articles that I'm reading and, you know, putting some lists together in the back of my mind. I've got I'd like to go there, or that sounds amazing and learning from others, but I think I do find relaxation. And you know, I guess my happy place in travel, whatever that might look like. Yeah, yeah, here here.

51:03

Two more questions. Yes. What's your dream destination to work in?

51:09

To work in?

51:12

Oh, wow, that's a big question.

51:17

I would like to, I mean, there's so many places that are now sort of

51:24

overrun by digital nomads. I'm not sure that you could say overrun, but I guess it's changed the nature of some of those places. Mostly because they're amazing places and people have gone, I want to live and work.

51:39

So as much as I would like to see some of those cattle hanja and Chiang Mai, in Chiang Mai in Thailand, I think I'd like to visit those places, whether I would like to work there or not. I think I would really like to work from somewhere reasonably remote.

52:02

Maybe an island, that would be kind of nice, but I'm guessing the Wi Fi is not probably going to be

52:09

which might take away from the full experience when you're like.

52:15

Yeah, look, you know, I think I'd be very happy in a villa in Tuscany. Working from there, if we have to.

52:24

That's actually yeah, I asked the question, but I didn't really think in my answer. I stayed and wasn't Tuscany, but it was Sicily. We were there for a wedding. And we stayed in this beautiful Castillo I think, yeah, like a little Oh, no, not cuz Kosala Kosala. So like a little house anyway, BMB type thing. And the woman had set up this little writing desk at the window. And we liked doing this broken Italian English. And I was like, this is where I want to come. And I want to write my book. And she's like, that's what I would put the table. Therefore, I want people to sit here and do something like that. Anyway, she sold the house, I'm like, we ruin the drain. The now I find a table and find a window in Italy, which I don't think will be terribly hard. That way that I could at least write and I'll have finished the book at that time. So I'll be in Italy this year. So I'll just have to go back next year and write another book. But yeah, it was. It was that? Yes, it has that. That vibe. So yeah, we're on? Yeah, yeah, maybe we can, we can get a couple of bedrooms. And we can have the cost so that we can stay there for longer if we have to. But you know, it's that whole under the Toughskins that I didn't go to Italy until 2018. And I was

53:34

I don't like popular things. So I was I think a one I wanted to go in Iran and really make the most of it as I wanted to get the history and ancient histories. I really wanted to see that part of it and didn't want to just do a quick trip. I want to do it properly in but also it was so popular. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna like it. No one's gonna be like, I don't know, cynical, and then I got there. I was like,

53:56

stunning. I get it. Anyways, well, we're in multiple Chiado in Florence. And I'm like, Yeah, that's why that movie was under the arm and why, you know, eat love. Pray like, I get it. Yeah, I get it. You go there. And like, I think we're gonna have to come back and live here for three months. I think we'll have to. Yeah, I would also love to have an apartment in New York.

54:18

My dream I think New York is just an incredible city is the city that never sleeps. And there is so much to see in New York. I think I've been five times now and it's never enough. It will be I think I you know, it's funny as soon as I answer that, again, while we are so connected, but it was soon as I asked that question and I was like, what would be my dream work? It was like to speak in New York or to ya know, someone who did the living in New York and working for a year and yeah, it just, it is it's just, it would be a place that would be cool that maybe not forever, but like definitely the top five places in the world to live for a time. Yeah.

55:00

Little work and live. And that's the thing. That is the ability that this way of, of working gives us. Yeah, it does. And, and I think, you know, as things change and technology advances, I think we'll see much more of this happening and more people, whether it's work from home, or whether it's hybrid, or whether it's being able to work further from the office, less days in the office more days, maybe on their farm in Gippsland, or in the next state. And you know, that that fly in fly out scenario is still very, very valid and still continues to be the case. Yeah, it's fluid, it can flow. It's great. Now, my absolute final question, you and I have to have a time limit. Otherwise, this could be a four part series.

55:55

70 seconds. Why don't we just have to do our own thing. But anyway, the question that I sometimes forget to ask, and it is a key line in this podcast. Key line in my book is, how do you live a life you love now?

56:11

Right now, I have traveled to all of the continents in the world, I am

56:19

amazingly blessed that I have the ability to be able to travel and I factor into almost every day, and you know, my washing will still be there, my dishes will still be there. But if the sun's out, and there's a winery with a band,

56:38

or there's an exhibition that I want to see, or

56:43

a festival, or an event, I'm a sucker for country market as well. So I am out there, I'm living the life I love. I love my job as well. So I think I'm pretty blessed that I love my work time. As much as I love my play time. So I get to live the life I love every day, and I'm certainly very grateful for that. And you can see why we are friends.

57:11

Yep, yep, yep. Yep. I love it. I love seeing what you're doing. I love seeing the way you make it work. And yeah, I know that you inspire others, and definitely encourage and excite and motivate me as well. So you my friend.

57:27

Thank you so much for having me. So right and thank you for being part of this, this journey and

57:35

book. Yeah, yes, definitely. It's really fun. So thanks for being part of this special little series around the book launch. And yeah, I'm sure there'll be more to come from these traveling friends. Lots more adventures ahead. Thanks. Gorgeous. Thank you.